Why can't anyone decide on two openers in an all-time Australian XI?

[LongHopCassidy]

Having said that, I wonder if established opening partners would perform better just by the rapport with their partner. As hilarious as it would seem, a gloveless, helmetless Trumper copping a bear hug from Haydos after belting a 40 ball ton with an 1890s bat against Marshall, Holding, Garner and Ambrose on a Port-of-Spain minefield seems somewhat surreal.

Why not compare the respective partnerships of Woodfull/Ponsford, Morris/Barnes, Lawry/Simpson, Taylor/Slater and Langer/Hayden and pick a pair as opposed to relentless comparison of individuals?

 

[Spark]

I've always thought that too, seems a more interesting exercise to me.

 

[Dan]

Hayden/Langer vs Simpson/Lawry if we're going by partnerships.

Morris/Barnes behind those two.

 

[watson]

This is a little off topic, but this footage of Victor Trumper's funeral procession in 1915 is pretty amazing - 3 1/2 miles long and central to Australia's cultural heritage;

Australasian Gazette

 

[watson]

Hayden/Langer vs Simpson/Lawry if we're going by partnerships.

Morris/Barnes behind those two.

Both Hayden/Langer and Slater/Taylor had average opening partnerships of 51 runs.

However, the average opening partnership of the Hayden/Langer era was 42.89, compared to the Slater/Taylor era where it was only 35.41.

Therefore, we could say that opening batsman were generally better in the Hayden/Langer era, but I think that is more likely that the new ball bowlers in the late 80s/early 90s were more skillful. That being the case the average opening partnership of Slater/Taylor is more impressive that than of Hayden/Langer even though the numbers are the same. If you see what I mean.

Hayden/Langer are over-rated and Slater/Taylor are under-rated IMO.

Stats from the past: The opening salvo | Highlights | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[watson]

Trumper: Era, era, era. Averaging 42 was pretty much superior to any of his contemporaries. Clem Hill, average 39, was the preeminent Australian middle order batsman of the day, in comparison.

Ponsford averaged 55 opening the batting, significantly higher than his career 48. He was far less successful in the middle order.

This would seem to run counter to the thoughts of the historian Geoff Armstong;

Frankly, if you rely on statistics, it is very hard to find a place for Victor Trumper anywhere near the peak of this top 100. His test batting average of 39.05 is very good for the era in which he batted, but hardly exceptional. After all, just among his countrymen in Tests up to World war I, Warren Bardesley averaged 45.15, Charlie Kellaway 39.62, Clem Hill 39.21, Vernon Ransford 37.84, Warwick Armstrong 35.67, Reggie Duff 35.59. Against England, Trumper averaged only 32.80. Billy Murdoch, who retired nine years before Trumper's Test debut and batted on inferior pitches, averaged exactly 32.00 in 18 Tests agianst England.

In Sheffield Shield cricket, Trumper averaged 48.36. However, Monty Noble averaged 68.00, Hill 52.28, Armstrong 50.47, Duff 49.98.....

'The 100 Greatest Cricketers'

I am still sceptical (but only sceptical) as to the true mathmatical effectiveness of Trumper, although his artistic and attacking value is doubtless.

 

[Red]

I am still sceptical (but only sceptical) as to the true mathmatical effectiveness of Trumper, although his artistic and attacking value is doubtless.

I think it might be one of those situations where you compare Viv Richards, who averaged around 50, to others who averaged 55 or 60, like Barrington. Even though Barrington was a great batsman and averaged nearly 10 more, you'd choose Viv in your team for a variety of reasons. Not a perfect example (I know they played in different times, but yeh).

That said, it's incredibly hard to gauge the very early eras. Cricket was so different.

There may be some romanticism in picking Trumper. So be it!

 

[Jager]

Morris: Swing bowling. Morris was frequently and consistently undone by Bedser such that his average never climbed out of the 30's during the last 5 years of his career. Incidently, contemporaries of both Bardsley and Morris indicated that Bardsley was just as skillful as Morris despite Bradman's obvious liking for Morris.

Trumper: For all his brilliance his low batting average indicates a poor temperment. He was not a successful batsman despite being a genius.

Disagree with these two quite a lot.

Morris: Averaged 57.42 in matches against Bedser.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Trumper: Probably had the best temperament of them all. He had a Miller-esque ability to step up, as this analysis shows

Victor Trumper Society » Bradman/Trumper

 

[watson]

I think it might be one of those situations where you compare Viv Richards, who averaged around 50, to others who averaged 55 or 60, like Barrington. Even though Barrington was a great batsman and averaged nearly 10 more, you'd choose Viv in your team for a variety of reasons. Not a perfect example (I know they played in different times, but yeh).

That said, it's incredibly hard to gauge the very early eras. Cricket was so different.

There may be some romanticism in picking Trumper. So be it!

I think that it has something to do with the fact that a batsman who can regularly dominate the bowling attack is more value to a team than another batsman who averages more, makes more centuries, but merely nudges his runs, or doesn't 'rise to the occasion'.

I agree, Richards over Barrington, and would add Fredericks over Boycott.

 

[watson]

Disagree with these two quite a lot.

Morris: Averaged 57.42 in matches against Bedser.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Trumper: Probably had the best temperament of them all. He had a Miller-esque ability to step up, as this analysis shows

Victor Trumper Society » Bradman/Trumper

Morris's stats are interesting. Bedser did dismiss Morris a record 18 times, but if Bedser is not the reason that his batting average collapsed from about 80 to less than 40 during the years 1951-55, then who/what is?

HowSTAT! Player Analysis by Year
HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

I'm not sure that I understand those Trumper stats as only small number of innings appear to be listed. He batted 89 times in Tests, where are they?

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Jager]

Some of the clauses are in Australia only or defined by being difficult fourth innings chases etc.

I don't think it's the best analysis because it does pick and choose to some extent, but it certainly has an eye-opening point when it comes to his rising to the occasion

 

[watson]

Some of the clauses are in Australia only or defined by being difficult fourth innings chases etc.

I don't think it's the best analysis because it does pick and choose to some extent, but it certainly has an eye-opening point when it comes to his rising to the occasion

Here is the Test match that irritates me;

4th Test: Australia v England at Sydney, Feb 26-Mar 3, 1904 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

England are leading the series 2-1. It's the 4th Test and Australia must not lose. Trumper is in excellent form, the venue is the SCG, but.......

 

[Jager]

Tough to judge a batsman on one match though

 

[watson]

Tough to judge a batsman on one match though

You want more?

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Amazing flourish

 

[Red]

Helicopter, pre Dhoni

 

[benchmark00]

Helicopter, pre Dhoni

Do you live in Europe, Monk? You post at the weirdest times for an Australian.

 

[MrPrez]

Same could be asked of you tbf.

 

[benchmark00]

Well I don't live in Australia, so...

 

[MrPrez]

Yeah, you live on YouTube. From like 10 seconds ago.