Defining the acronym- ATG

[watson]

While we're on the topic of keepers....

I think that Syed Kirmani probably deserves a place on the Gold Tier mantel as the best ever keeper from the Subcontinent. Very useful No.8 batsman too.

 

[Jager]

While we're on the topic of keepers....

I think that Syed Kirmani probably deserves a place on the Gold Tier mantel as the best ever keeper from the Subcontinent. Very useful No.8 batsman too.

Embarassingly enough, I think I've got the two mixed up in my mind - will fix it now

 

[watson]

Prassana is often referred to as India's best spin bowler, or at least on a par with Kumble. I think that he should be Silver Tier. As should Maurice Leyland for his fine work against Bill O'Reilly and Australia.

 

[Jager]

I will likely put Benaud and Verity in the silver tier. Tayfield is about the same level as them if not better. Got 14 fivers in only 37 tests!

Verity easily a gold tier spinner for me - some great performances in an era of very flat tracks. Tayfield is a harsh omission from gold tier. Will consider moving him up

 

[Jager]

Prassana is often referred to as India's best spin bowler, or at least on a par with Kumble. I think that he should be Silver Tier. As should Maurice Leyland for his fine work against Bill O'Reilly and Australia.

Possibly quite harsh on Maurice, might change him up later - I will stick by my rating of Prass though. Spectacular against NZ but not so much against other sides

 

[kyear2]

If Verity, Benaud and Tayfield are Gold tier so is Gibbs. The number one rated spinner of his era and played on the flattest pitches.

 

[kyear2]

Still too much names in middle order, should be cut off after Harvey, for example Kanhai was a better batsman than Worrell and Walcott (just using West Indies batsmen as example) and he is silver (deservedly).
Derek Murray was best windies keeper (with Hendricks) to spin and pace.

 

[Jager]

Cutting it off after Harvey would mean Nourse, Compton, Worrell (IMO the best of the W's) and Hazare all cut - all massively underrated except for perhaps Compton. All of them have had a spot in my ever-changing ATG XI at some stage. Not a huge Waugh/Walcott fan but they deserve to be there too. Might move May up to gold tier

 

[kyear2]

Kanhai was a better batsman that all of the names mentioned, some from that era aid he was better than Sobers. Certainly better than May.

 

[Jager]

Some say May was better than Hutton too

 

[hang on]

interesting thread.

remember reading something in a cricket forum about how to go about thinking about all time great, legend, world class etc.

all time great legends: those who would be a shoo in or, at the very least, in a very short list for the all time world team.
batsmen: bradman (sui generis, to be perfectly frank), tendulkar, sobers, richards, lara, hobbs, hutton, gavaskar and a couple more.
allrounders: sobers, kallis, khan.
bowlers: murali, warne, marshall, hadlee, mcgrath, ambrose, akram, khan, barnes, lillee
keepers: gilchrist, knott



all time great: those who would definitely be in the long list for all time teams, and definitely in the short list for the all time great B team short list.
batsmen: chappell, kallis, dravid, hammond, border, barrington, sangakkara, jayawardene et al
bowlers: pollock, holding, trueman, roberts, walsh, lindwall, donald, waqar et al
all rounders: botham, dev, pollock, hadlee, miller
keepers: marsh, dujon, healy, taylor


great: shoo in for the world team at the time of playing, perhaps even for a few years.
batsmen: waugh, hayden smith, sehwag, younis, inzamam

u get the point.

 

[watson]

I do have a question for Jager regarding his Gold-Silver-Bronze Tier system.....

Would a player go up a Tier if he is united with his batting or bowling partner in the same ATG team?

A bowling example would be Peter Heine. His stat's alone aren't fabulous. However, his partnership with Neil Adcock has become legendary, and so an Adcock-Heine combo is a different proposition to just Heine on his own.

A batting example would be John Edrich. The Boycott-Edrich opening partnership was very successful in the 1960s. Hence Edrich partnered with Boycott would be more valuable to a team than just Edrich on his own. Edrich would go up a Tier when opening with Boycott.

What do you think? Am I talking a load of rubbish?

 

[Jager]

I get what you're saying.

The tier system I came up with originally came around so I could 'rate' Draft League teams (that being said, I still choose based on instinct). Basically, it gives each player a value of 1-3 points, gold obviously being 3. It helps quantify the strength of a team as individuals.

After the 'raw score' is calculated, bonus points are awarded. This is the make-or-break part of the draft, since most teams finished with between 25-27 points when I used it last, although back then I just rated each player instantly when I saw them in a lineup. You can get an extra point for each of the following...

1. Left-right opening combination
2. Wicketkeeper who is a very good batsman (estimate 30+ average, e.g Knott, Ames, Gilchrist)
3. A genuine fifth bowling option
4. Lower order strength to number eight at least
5. Left arm frontline bowler
6. Genius/inspirational captain (e.g Brearley, Miller, Imran, Benaud, Taylor etc.)
7. Having three great slip/gully fielders
8. Having an established combination (e.g Warne-McGrath, Simpson-Lawry, Wasim-Waqar etc.)

 

[watson]

I get what you're saying.

The tier system I came up with originally came around so I could 'rate' Draft League teams (that being said, I still choose based on instinct). Basically, it gives each player a value of 1-3 points, gold obviously being 3. It helps quantify the strength of a team as individuals.

After the 'raw score' is calculated, bonus points are awarded. This is the make-or-break part of the draft, since most teams finished with between 25-27 points when I used it last, although back then I just rated each player instantly when I saw them in a lineup. You can get an extra point for each of the following...

1. Left-right opening combination
2. Wicketkeeper who is a very good batsman (estimate 30+ average, e.g Knott, Ames, Gilchrist)
3. A genuine fifth bowling option
4. Lower order strength to number eight at least
5. Left arm frontline bowler
6. Genius/inspirational captain (e.g Brearley, Miller, Imran, Benaud, Taylor etc.)
7. Having three great slip/gully fielders
8. Having an established combination (e.g Warne-McGrath, Simpson-Lawry, Wasim-Waqar etc.)

OK, so an 'extra' (bonus) point is awarded, rather than the point being obtained by a batsman/bowler moving up a Tier. Fair enough.

 

[kyear2]

Really think that the top tier should be reserved for batsmen with legitimate claim to be the best after Bradman.
Trumper, G. Chappell (Ponting, Harvey), Headley, Sobers, Richards, Lara (Weekes), Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond, Sutcliffe, Pollock, Richards (Kallis) (Miandad)

 

[Jager]

Really think that the top tier should be reserved for batsmen with legitimate claim to be the best after Bradman.
Trumper, G. Chappell (Ponting, Harvey), Headley, Sobers, Richards, Lara (Weekes), Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond, Sutcliffe, Pollock, Richards (Kallis) (Miandad)

You can rank yours differently if you choose - I consider gold tier any player who is an automatic selection for their nation's XI and/or not look out of place in someone's dream team.

 

[kyear2]

Making a S/L or N.Z team or Indian bowling spot is not exactly that difficult a proposition. But I accept youe point.

 

[benchmark00]

Making a S/L or N.Z team or Indian bowling spot is not exactly that difficult a proposition. But I accept youe point.

Yeah I was about to say - I think Bomb's criteria has to have some form of caveat attached to it.

Blokes like Vettori, Vaas, Ian Smith etc etc etc clearly can't be counted as gold.

 

[Jager]

**** I forgot about the minnows, but you got what I mean!

 

[benchmark00]

calling NZ and Sri Lanka minnows, won't be popular.