***Official*** Australia in England 2012

[uvelocity]

turd Australia are.

we ****ing are, aren't we.

Whilst our recent series W/L record is good, our individual W/L isn't as good.

Is there anything to do with getting the better of conditions in that? At lords, depsite winning, it was closer due I guess in part to the poms batting first in the morning.

 

[Ruckus]

That reveals a problem with the ranking system then. Australia have been struggling relative to the dominant years in ODIs for a couple of years now. So how is it that Aus is still No. 1?

Surely the system should reflect much more current form.

Yes, and so what? If anything can be taken from what's been going on in test cricket for the past year or two, it's that you don't have to be a dominant team to be the number one. Australia had a very clear decline in test cricket, which everyone knows was down to losing a lot of top players and not being able to replace them. The situation with ODI's for Australia has been different to tests though. If you take the period starting with the 6-1 post-Ashes win over England in 2009, since then we have performed as well as anyone - not necessarily dominant, but good enough to ensure we stayed at the top. And deservedly so imo. Just because we lost to England in this series doesn't all of a sudden mean Australia is a "crap" OD team and far inferior to the England one or whatever else some people are spewing out. Fix a few glaring holes in the side, which have only been added recently, and I don't see why this OD team can't stay competitive with the other top sides.

 

[NUFAN]

I forgot to say this yesterday, but that ball by Bopara to dismiss Bailey was an absolute beauty!

England have the wood on us completely now in all 3 formats which is worrying/frustrating/bull****.

Forrest should never play another ODI unless he starts smashing 100 ball centuries in domestic cricket for QLD, but he wont because he never did..

Since we aren't playing well the 2015 world cup should be in the selectors minds. I would love to see Cricketers who have performed well domestically (Rob Quiney, Mitch Marsh, Alastair McDermott) be given a chance in our setup along with the guys who have done good to reasonable for Australia who are not with the squad at the moment (Shaun Marsh, Callum Ferguson, Dan Christian).

 

[Spark]

Mate if you think bowlers perform the same in an ODI series after one, or indeed no practice matches compared with an extended tour with work under their belts then I'm afraid you're a little mistaken.

It does these guys, especially the young blokes, no harm to have a run in England before next year, but I don't know that it's particularly instructive as to how they'll go. I'm not particularly worried about the bowling tbh. Provided we don't agree to an itinerary where we arrive a week beforehand, I think it will be ok (knowing CA we will). Hilf will bowl well in England (iirc he was leading wicket taker in 09) and at least one of Harris and Siddle are likely. The real issue is just getting the buggers on the park. Young or old, they seem to be breaking down a lot. Part of that, I suspect, is coming back straight into internationals and bowling balls-to-the-walls from the start rather than warming into your work. It's a worry, but it's solved if they get a good FC season behind them and loads of overs. Personally think they're mollycoddled too much and their overs are rationed too much.

But the questions are more around the batting. A lot has been said about Ponting and Hussey because of their age, but I think the problem is more the top three, where blokes getting 40-60 odd is considered a decent job. We have SA at home (as well as the joke SL attack, I won't include them) this summer. Assuming that attack is all fit, it'll be a good measure before the Ashes, as long as its not too dry a summer here. Ideally from our POV, at least one but really two of the top three need a break out summer to show they're capable of making consistently big scores against a good attack. They've had a bit of time in the team now in those positions, and it's time for them to step up. The blokes in those spots need to show a proper ability to compile scores. Big scores.

Our top three will determine how the series goes I suspect. If its like your current season they pitches will have enough in them to make it a bowlers' series, but for us to win our top three will want parity with yours. So muppets like Watson, who strut off feeling great about a well struck 50, need to get a **** load hungrier.

This, this and this.

 

[social]

I forgot to say this yesterday, but that ball by Bopara to dismiss Bailey was an absolute beauty!

England have the wood on us completely now in all 3 formats which is worrying/frustrating/bull****.

Forrest should never play another ODI unless he starts smashing 100 ball centuries in domestic cricket for QLD, but he wont because he never did..

Since we aren't playing well the 2015 world cup should be in the selectors minds. I would love to see Cricketers who have performed well domestically (Rob Quiney, Mitch Marsh, Alastair McDermott) be given a chance in our setup along with the guys who have done good to reasonable for Australia who are not with the squad at the moment (Shaun Marsh, Callum Ferguson, Dan Christian).

Forrest will play on Tuesday

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Mate if you think bowlers perform the same in an ODI series after one, or indeed no practice matches compared with an extended tour with work under their belts then I'm afraid you're a little mistaken.

It does these guys, especially the young blokes, no harm to have a run in England before next year, but I don't know that it's particularly instructive as to how they'll go. I'm not particularly worried about the bowling tbh. Provided we don't agree to an itinerary where we arrive a week beforehand, I think it will be ok (knowing CA we will). Hilf will bowl well in England (iirc he was leading wicket taker in 09) and at least one of Harris and Siddle are likely. The real issue is just getting the buggers on the park. Young or old, they seem to be breaking down a lot. Part of that, I suspect, is coming back straight into internationals and bowling balls-to-the-walls from the start rather than warming into your work. It's a worry, but it's solved if they get a good FC season behind them and loads of overs. Personally think they're mollycoddled too much and their overs are rationed too much.

But the questions are more around the batting. A lot has been said about Ponting and Hussey because of their age, but I think the problem is more the top three, where blokes getting 40-60 odd is considered a decent job. We have SA at home (as well as the joke SL attack, I won't include them) this summer. Assuming that attack is all fit, it'll be a good measure before the Ashes, as long as its not too dry a summer here. Ideally from our POV, at least one but really two of the top three need a break out summer to show they're capable of making consistently big scores against a good attack. They've had a bit of time in the team now in those positions, and it's time for them to step up. The blokes in those spots need to show a proper ability to compile scores. Big scores.

Our top three will determine how the series goes I suspect. If its like your current season they pitches will have enough in them to make it a bowlers' series, but for us to win our top three will want parity with yours. So muppets like Watson, who strut off feeling great about a well struck 50, need to get a **** load hungrier.

The bowling WILL be better next year (can't be much worse anyway) but as you say the batting is a problem. Will this series leave mental scars on some of the younger players. After all, the players will look back and the last one day and test series they have played against England they have failed miserably as a unit and been thrashed constantly. No matter how good you are the mental side of the game takes over and you remember stuff.

Michael Vaughan's book about the 2005 ashes was telling, he wanted Thorpe out of the side as he was scarred mentally by Australian beatings, luckily we had KP to replace him. Australia don't have the same luxury with Forrest Gump in the side.

 

[wpdavid]

I haven't seen much of Bresnan batting in ODIs generally as the time zones work against me seeing him. Is he genuinely up to that position long term?

No and yes.
Clearly there have been much better number 7s in the better ODI sides over the years and, when our top order does collapse he won't turn it around like those guys.
otoh it's part of the calculated decision to play five proper bowlers and therefore restrict the totals our opponents will make.
Also, with Broad and Swann to come after him, we're probably better than most sides by the time you get to number 9 even though we're a bit weaker at number 7. I still think that Broad may eventually be the better bet at number 7 in these games.
Plus it helps that our top 3 are genuinely good test batsmen, so the top order collapses should be less frequent.

 

[Ruckus]

@ fj, Na, I doubt the key younger players like Pattinson, Cummins and Warner would be scarred from something as trivial as this OD series. After all those guys didn't play in the Ashes. I'd be more concerned over the middle-age players like Watson and Hilfenhaus who have only seen defeat against England, and by now surely must be feeling somewhat jaded playing against them. I'd hope, though, as professional athletes they'll have the cojones to not let it affect their performance next time around and actually try to use it as motivation to do better.

 

[Burgey]

The bowling WILL be better next year (can't be much worse anyway) but as you say the batting is a problem. Will this series leave mental scars on some of the younger players. After all, the players will look back and the last one day and test series they have played against England they have failed miserably as a unit and been thrashed constantly. No matter how good you are the mental side of the game takes over and you remember stuff.

Michael Vaughan's book about the 2005 ashes was telling, he wanted Thorpe out of the side as he was scarred mentally by Australian beatings, luckily we had KP to replace him. Australia don't have the same luxury with Forrest Gump in the side.

I doubt there'll be too many mental scars as a result of 3 or 4 ODI losses. If people are goin to be scarred by that, they wouldn't be playing FC, let alone test cricket. Thorpe had been copping pizzlings for 12 years.

 

[Spark]

Yeah there's ample evidence to suggest that ODI thrashings are pretty inconsequential.

 

[Burgey]

Yes, and so what? If anything can be taken from what's been going on in test cricket for the past year or two, it's that you don't have to be a dominant team to be the number one. Australia had a very clear decline in test cricket, which everyone knows was down to losing a lot of top players and not being able to replace them. The situation with ODI's for Australia has been different to tests though. If you take the period starting with the 6-1 post-Ashes win over England in 2009, since then we have performed as well as anyone - not necessarily dominant, but good enough to ensure we stayed at the top. And deservedly so imo. Just because we lost to England in this series doesn't all of a sudden mean Australia is a "crap" OD team and far inferior to the England one or whatever else some people are spewing out. Fix a few glaring holes in the side, which have only been added recently, and I don't see why this OD team can't stay competitive with the other top sides.

India should be the number one ODI side. The rankings should reset after each WC and a four year window apply from then. It's that far ahead of any other LO series it should be the four-yearly circuit breaker for the rankings.

 

[GIMH]

I agree

 

[flibbertyjibber]

India should be the number one ODI side. The rankings should reset after each WC and a four year window apply from then. It's that far ahead of any other LO series it should be the four-yearly circuit breaker for the rankings.

Yeah, should get almost quadruple points for the WC and maybe double for Champions Trophy. Both are way ahead of a poxy series like this one or those India v SL series that happen ever other month.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

Observations on yesterday's game and the following discussion:

It was tea at my game and they showed the Keiswetter catch. There was a collective "Wow!!!" from the 20+ people watching.

Finn is becoming the bowler I thought he would - bad news for opponents.

Johnson strikes me as a bowler who can be devastating once or twice a year but, because of his action when it is not quite in place his control is awful. There were times in 2009 when Ponting just couldn't bowl him.

And if Social wants him ahead of Broad and bresnaan he can have him......

 

[Uppercut]

India should be the number one ODI side. The rankings should reset after each WC and a four year window apply from then. It's that far ahead of any other LO series it should be the four-yearly circuit breaker for the rankings.

Nah, we already know who the world champions are, and everyone knows it's what matters. The rankings might as well tell us something new.

 

[GIMH]

Well a year on yeah, but the thing about them being reset after each WC is on the money for mine.

 

[robelinda]

Interesting table. Team results away from home since Jan 1 2010. SA way ahead.

Team records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Scaly piscine]

The bowling WILL be better next year (can't be much worse anyway) but as you say the batting is a problem. Will this series leave mental scars on some of the younger players. After all, the players will look back and the last one day and test series they have played against England they have failed miserably as a unit and been thrashed constantly. No matter how good you are the mental side of the game takes over and you remember stuff.

Michael Vaughan's book about the 2005 ashes was telling, he wanted Thorpe out of the side as he was scarred mentally by Australian beatings, luckily we had KP to replace him. Australia don't have the same luxury with Forrest Gump in the side.

Dropping Thorpe was still ludicrous. Thorpe averaged 45 against Australia. You can still make terrible decisions and win, just as you can make great decisions and lose. The result should not vindicate everything that precedes it.

 

[robelinda]

Plus, Thorpe hadn't played a full Ashes series since 1997. He only played one test in 98/99, 2 in 2001, and none in 02/03. Not much scarring there.

 

[Jayzamann]

It was a good thing I was getting pole axed drunk last night. Saved me the effort of watching the game, then getting pole axed drunk.