CW Draft League

[Jager]

Don't know where this Imran hate is coming from, he's on level terms with Miller and perhaps early Botham and that's all.

 

[watson]

I don't think that anyone is hating Imran Khan. There's nothing to 'hate'.

 

[Jager]

Hate is the wrong word, you're right. How people saying he isn't an all-rounder though, I have no idea.

 

[marc71178]

I've always thought the truly elite TRUE all rounders were the ones with a 30 plus batting average and a sub 30 bowling average.

I don't think career averages can be used as a guide at all.

By your definition the greatest of them all wouldn't be classed as one.

 

[Jager]

Cevno timed out.

That means Blakus, MrPrez and watson are up. Cevno may choose whenever he gets on.


R1
kingkallis- Garfield Sobers
Himannv- Imran Khan
Marcuss- Adam Gilchrist
Cabinet96- Keith Miller
Eds- Malcolm Marshall
Cevno- Richard Hadlee
Blakus- Vivian Richards
MrPrez- Jaques Kallis
watson- Glenn McGrath
Jager-
AndyZaltzHair-
kyear2-

 

[Cevno]

Richard Hadlee

 

[Red]

I don't think career averages can be used as a guide at all.

By your definition the greatest of them all wouldn't be classed as one.

I guess you mean Sobers?

I see your point, and I classify him as an all-rounder definitely.

Maybe a batting average of 25 plus and a bowling average of under 35 is a better guide?

What I mean is that a true all-rounder should be able to gain his place in a team almost on one discipline.


Would Miller have been selected for Australia as a batsman only OR a bowler only? - yes

Would Imran have been selected for Pakistan as a batsman only OR a bowler only - I think so

Would Botham have been selected for England as a batsman only or a bowler only - I think so

Would Kapil have been selected for India as a batsman only OR a bowler only - likely

Would Sobers have been selected for WIs as a batsman only OR a bowler only - definitely as a batsman, only possibly as a bowler

Would Kallis be selected for SA as a batsman only OR a bowler only - definitely as a batsman, only possibly as a bowler

Would Hadlee be selected for NZ as a batsman only OR a bowler only - definitely as a bowler, only possibly as a batsman



They are all all-rounders in my mind, but there are different types (obviously).

 

[MrPrez]

No, they're not.

Yeah they really are. Certainly much closer than Bradman and any other batsman.

 

[watson]

Good choice by Cervo - a BOWLING ALL-ROUNDER

 

[Jager]

Good points around Kallis and Hadlee, Monk. Sobers was actually orginially in the team as a left-arm spinner, though!

 

[kingkallis]

Sobers as a bowler ( compared to these other all-rounders ) is nearly a joke but yeah if he was added to the team as a spinner then its a different story.

Left arm spinner who opened the bowling...

 

[kingkallis]

From what I have read, Miller is the pure all-rounder and teams feared players like Botham, Imran, Gilchrist cause of their all-round abilities. Kapil and Hadlee were good all-rounders who did their job very well.

Kallis, as a bowler, would have find it hard to get a place in SAF bowling unit.

About Sobers, I cant say much as I didnt witness the Windies bowling back in 50s / 60s but yeah only Wes Hall and 2-3 other spinners were note-worthy during Sobers era.

 

[MrPrez]

From what I have read, Miller is the pure all-rounder and teams feared players like Botham, Imran, Gilchrist cause of their all-round abilities. Kapil and Hadlee were good all-rounders who did their job very well.

Kallis, as a bowler, would have find it hard to get a place in SAF bowling unit.

About Sobers, I cant say much as I didnt witness the Windies bowling back in 50s / 60s but yeah only Wes Hall and 2-3 other spinners were note-worthy during Sobers era.

So would medium-pace Sobers...

Spinning Sobers might make it, but that's because SA has a weak spin attack. He wouldn't find a place in a spin attack of equal strength to SA's pace attack (a theoretical one).

 

[Eds]

There's no way you can stereotype every all-rounder into one statistical bracket. For example, Hadlee and Sobers are both (IMO) all-rounders, yet they occupy completely different roles.

For an ATG batting all-rounder, you'd want a batting average of >48, and a bowling average of <38, for example. Then you have to take into account different eras and all the rest of it. It's far too complicated to just put two figures on.

 

[MrPrez]

There's no way you can stereotype every all-rounder into one statistical bracket. For example, Hadlee and Sobers are both (IMO) all-rounders, yet they occupy completely different roles.

For an ATG batting all-rounder, you'd want a batting average of >48, and a bowling average of <38, for example. Then you have to take into account different eras and all the rest of it. It's far too complicated to just put two figures on.

It depends on what grounds you classify an ATG. I would look more along the lines of 45 and 35 being the two benchmarks for the level you appear to value it.

For bowlers, I'd look at 20 batting and 27 bowling being the minimum.

 

[Blakus]

Vivian Richards

 

[watson]

This may answer a few questions;

The World's Best All-Rounder

By Anantha Narayanan

.....Who is a Test all-rounder? There prevails a peculiar idea of all-rounders. A bowler who can bat a bit (Abid Ali) or a batsmen who can turn his arm a bit (Sehwag) or a bowler who chances his way to a hundred (Agarkar), at various times have been dubbed as all-rounders.

That is a very low-level expectation of an all-rounder. Let us raise the bar substantially. An all-rounder should be capable of winning matches consistently with his batting or bowling. Since this is a subjective statement, let us lay down some rules to be used as the basis for our analysis.

He should have scored a minimum of 2000 Test runs at an average of 20.00 or above. The limit of 20.00 is necessary to exclude long-career bowlers such as Warne and Kumble getting into the All-rounders list. Much as I admire their batting skills I am not ready to accept them as all-rounders.

He should have taken a minimum of 100 Test wickets. There is no need to have a limit of average since the all-rounder with the worst bowling record among this lot, Carl Hooper, with a bowling average of 49.43 is still considered as a genuine all-rounder. If I incorporate a cut-off limit of 40.00 for bowling average, Ravi Shastri and Hooper go out.

The rationale behind these two cut-off numbers is that, on an average, it takes 25-30 Tests to score 2000 runs and take 100 wickets. So we are looking at players who have played these many Tests at the minimum. 21 players qualify under these criteria. Wally Hammond misses out based on this citeria. Jayasuriya just misses out by two wickets. Steve Waugh also misses out by a few wickets.....

Let us come to a conclusion.

The top 5 all-rounders of all time are Sobers, Kallis, Botham, Imran Khan and Pollock. Hadlee and Kapil Dev run these 5 close. No surprises except that Kallis is so close to Sobers at the top.

It Figures | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Jager]

MrPrez left his selection with me, he chooses Jaques Kallis. Watson's up

 

[watson]

Damn. I'm left with GLENN MCGRATH again

 

[Jager]

Got to go with Curtly Ambrose here.


R1
kingkallis- Garfield Sobers
Himannv- Imran Khan
Marcuss- Adam Gilchrist
Cabinet96- Keith Miller
Eds- Malcolm Marshall
Cevno- Richard Hadlee
Blakus- Vivian Richards
MrPrez- Jaques Kallis
watson- Glenn McGrath
Jager- Curtly Ambrose
AndyZaltzHair- Dennis Lillee
kyear2-

R2
kyear2-
AndyZaltzHair-
Jager-
watson-
MrPrez-
Blakus-
Cevno-
Eds-
Cabinet96-
Marcuss-
Himannv-
kingkallis-