Did Barry Richards do enough to be considered in an All Time Team

[Jager]

Hoping this hasn't been posted

Barry Richards 129 Hampshire Vs Lancashire 1972 - YouTube

 

[Burgey]

When Richards made that 350 odd, I understand he scored more than 300 in a day. Apparently the last ball of the day he one-two-oned it down the track to Lillee and hit him back over his head into the sight screen on the full.

Nice way to end a day's play.

 

[watson]

may be. but they dont. because test cricket is played between teams representing nations (or a conglomerate of nations in the case of windies). any other put-together team, however good it may be, cannot be considered to be playing the same game. lets not compare apples and oranges. barry has not played enough test cricket to be considered an alltime great. end of story. any other form of cricket he excelled in may bring him glory of a different kind but there is no way he is going to have dinner with hobbs, hutton, sunny, trumper and greenidge. he is welcome to dine with other FC greats like vijay merchant, graeme hick and darren lehmann.

Barry Richards is obviously not an ATG in terms of Test matches played and the variable pressures they inevitably bring. However, by all accounts (Bradman, Harold Bird, Chappell etc) he IS an ATG in terms of raw talent. So it depends on what criteria you use to categorise him.

Since we don't have 'actual' evidence to categorically say that Richards and Hutton are on a par then we have to rely on 'circumstantial' evidence where the conclusion is implied. In my opinion there can only be one rational conclusion from the evidence available - If allowed to play more than 50 Test matches under all conditions then he would have excelled way beyond the average opening batsman. In other words, his potentiality is enough on its own to make Barry Richards an ATG.

Now imagine that your team needs 350 runs on the 5th day of a Test match against the 1980 West Indies team. There is a gun to your head and the trigger will be pulled if your team doesn't get those 350 runs.

So, are you gunna pick Merchant, Lehmann, or Hick to save your life? Or will ask Barry Richards to open the batting for you?

 

[bagapath]

In my opinion there can only be one rational conclusion from the evidence available - If allowed to play more than 50 Test matches under all conditions then he would have excelled way beyond the average opening batsman. In other words, his potentiality is enough on its own to make Barry Richards an ATG.

how is this a rational conclusion? how do we assume this? he played in 4 test matches. how can you extrapolate that to 50??? and "in all circumstances"???

 

[watson]

how is this a rational conclusion? how do we assume this? he played in 4 test matches. how can you extrapolate that to 50??? and "in all circumstances"???

As I said;

Barry Richards is obviously not an ATG in terms of Test matches played and the variable pressures they inevitably bring. However, by all accounts (Bradman, Harold Bird, Chappell etc) he IS an ATG in terms of raw talent. So it depends on what criteria you use to categorise him.

Since we don't have 'actual' evidence to categorically say that Richards and Hutton are on a par then we have to rely on 'circumstantial' evidence where the conclusion is implied. In my opinion there can only be one rational conclusion from the evidence available - If allowed to play more than 50 Test matches under all conditions then he would have excelled way beyond the average opening batsman. In other words, his potentiality is enough on its own to make Barry Richards an ATG.

 

[fredfertang]

how is this a rational conclusion? how do we assume this? he played in 4 test matches. how can you extrapolate that to 50??? and "in all circumstances"???

Fair comment but I have no doubt watson is right on this one. One of the few benefits of being my venerable age is that I saw a lot of Barry Richards. Unsurprisingly the TV cameras used to follow him around , Hampshire getting the nod on Sundays much more often than they should have, but no one was complaining - he almost always delivered for the cameras and certainly played a big part in my becoming a cricket tragic.

There really was no comparison between Richards and anyone else - as a wide eyed youngster I used to love watching guys like Clive Lloyd, Sobers, Kanhai and all the other great players in County cricket but none of them were as stylish as Richards, or made batting look as simple.

The nearest to him was Zaheer Abbas, who was also a wonderful stylist, but on Sundays, because in those days bowlers run ups were limited, only Mike Procter was quick, and he and Zaheer were on the same side - it was different in the B&H and Gillette competitions and Zaheer wasn't quite so keen on the quick stuff - Barry Richards though seemed to thrive on it - he just had so much time to play his shots.

There is no doubt in my mind that had Richards played 50 tests he'd have averaged north of 70 and, which I rather doubt, had he ever acquired the determination to mercilessly punish lesser bowlers just for his average, he might have even have got close to the Don - believe me he really was that special!

 

[smash84]

wow.....come from feghtang....that is high praise

 

[NUFAN]

There is no doubt in my mind that had Richards played 50 tests he'd have averaged north of 70 and, which I rather doubt, had he ever acquired the determination to mercilessly punish lesser bowlers just for his average, he might have even have got close to the Don - believe me he really was that special!

No doubt? Not any at all? Huge call.

 

[Debris]

Fair comment but I have no doubt watson is right on this one. One of the few benefits of being my venerable age is that I saw a lot of Barry Richards. Unsurprisingly the TV cameras used to follow him around , Hampshire getting the nod on Sundays much more often than they should have, but no one was complaining - he almost always delivered for the cameras and certainly played a big part in my becoming a cricket tragic.

There really was no comparison between Richards and anyone else - as a wide eyed youngster I used to love watching guys like Clive Lloyd, Sobers, Kanhai and all the other great players in County cricket but none of them were as stylish as Richards, or made batting look as simple.

The nearest to him was Zaheer Abbas, who was also a wonderful stylist, but on Sundays, because in those days bowlers run ups were limited, only Mike Procter was quick, and he and Zaheer were on the same side - it was different in the B&H and Gillette competitions and Zaheer wasn't quite so keen on the quick stuff - Barry Richards though seemed to thrive on it - he just had so much time to play his shots.

There is no doubt in my mind that had Richards played 50 tests he'd have averaged north of 70 and, which I rather doubt, had he ever acquired the determination to mercilessly punish lesser bowlers just for his average, he might have even have got close to the Don - believe me he really was that special!

There is no way that Richards would have maintained an average over 70. If nothing else, he would have run into probably the greatest concentration of ATG quick bowlers we have seen. Which is not healthy if you are an opener.

 

[fredfertang]

No doubt? Not any at all? Huge call.

The bloke was in a different class as a batsman to anyone else I have ever seen - the only problem he ever seems to have suffered from was a difficulty in motivating himself - if he'd been able to bat against them for South Africa in Test cricket I really don't think any bowler would have fazed him - I might be wrong of course, and the rose-tinted spectacles might be playing up a bit, but I really don't think so

My Dad always used to wax lyrical about him as well - he had seen a lot of cricket in the 50s and 60s and always said that however good May and Dexter were (he always maintained they were the best two English batsman he had seen by quite a distance) that they couldn't hold a candle to Barry Richards

 

[NUFAN]

The bloke was in a different class as a batsman to anyone else I have ever seen - the only problem he ever seems to have suffered from was a difficulty in motivating himself - if he'd been able to bat against them for South Africa in Test cricket I really don't think any bowler would have fazed him - I might be wrong of course, and the rose-tinted spectacles might be playing up a bit, but I really don't think so

My Dad always used to wax lyrical about him as well - he had seen a lot of cricket in the 50s and 60s and always said that however good May and Dexter were (he always maintained they were the best two English batsman he had seen by quite a distance) that they couldn't hold a candle to Barry Richards

I think you are probably right on several points in this post but I don't know how this constitutes a 70 average. He averaged an excellent 54 in his first class career, the 16 run deficit per out mustn't only be down to lack of motivation, surely? Not to mention obviously a higher class of bowler he would need to face in Tests.

Obviously we can't know for sure though..

 

[fredfertang]

I saw him at Old Trafford in a couple of County matches when I was really young - 8 or 9 I would think - the first time he got about 150 and was completely untroubled by Ken Higgs and Ken Shuttleworth. It was so enjoyable my Dad took me back again a year or two later, but that time he scratched around for a bit before getting out for not very many - I do recall he looked like a different batsman, totally disinterested - he never batted like that when there were TV cameras around

 

[bagapath]

with due respect to fredfertang and watson, i dont agree.

international cricket is a completely different animal. in the 70s and 80s barry would have been required to handle reverse swing from pakistan, scorching pace from west indies, spin from india and lillee, hadlee, underwood and botham from elsewhere. he may have handled them as well as gavaskar, greg chappell, border, miandad and viv richards to be called an ATG. but he may not have mastered all and fallen into the very good - almost great category consisting of gower, walters, crowe and zaheer also. there is no shame in that coz they were all terrific bats too. just that it is impossible for me to extrapolate so much from his FC career and catapult him into the top most tier so easily.

the recipe is good, ingredients look nice. but the cake was never made. lets not assume it would have tasted as well as the one we enjoyed. anything could have wrong in the process of cooking. (writing dialogue for a B grade film. it is full of such **** lines)

 

[Debris]

Richards and Archie Jackson are the two players I have always wished had the chance to play more test cricket. Just thinking about it is making me annoyed.

 

[smash84]

with due respect to fredfertang and watson, i dont agree.

international cricket is a completely different animal. in the 70s and 80s barry would have been required to handle reverse swing from pakistan, scorching pace from west indies, spin from india and lillee, hadlee, underwood and botham from elsewhere. he may have handled them as well as gavaskar, greg chappell, border, miandad and viv richards to be called an ATG. but he may not have mastered all and fallen into the very good - almost great category consisting of gower, walters, crowe and zaheer also. there is no shame in that coz they were all terrific bats too. just that it is impossible for me to extrapolate so much from his FC career and catapult him into the top most tier so easily.

the recipe is good, ingredients look nice. but the cake was never made. lets not assume it would have tasted as well as the one we enjoyed. anything could have wrong in the process of cooking. (writing dialogue for a B grade film. it is full of such **** lines)

awta

 

[fredfertang]

with due respect to fredfertang and watson, i dont agree.

international cricket is a completely different animal. in the 70s and 80s barry would have been required to handle reverse swing from pakistan, scorching pace from west indies, spin from india and lillee, hadlee, underwood and botham from elsewhere. he may have handled them as well as gavaskar, greg chappell, border, miandad and viv richards to be called an ATG. but he may not have mastered all and fallen into the very good - almost great category consisting of gower, walters, crowe and zaheer also. there is no shame in that coz they were all terrific bats too. just that it is impossible for me to extrapolate so much from his FC career and catapult him into the top most tier so easily.

the recipe is good, ingredients look nice. but the cake was never made. lets not assume it would have tasted as well as the one we enjoyed. anything could have wrong in the process of cooking. (writing dialogue for a B grade film. it is full of such **** lines)

Tbh I wouldn't expect anyone who hadn't seen Richards in his pomp to take a view other than that I was talking bollocks - its a bit like the dwindling number who saw him declaring that if Duncan Edwards hadn't died in the Munich air crash he'd have been the greatest footballer who ever lived*, doesn't alter the fact that I saw Barry Richards at his best on, thankfully, a number of occasions and I'll argue till the day I die that's he was, Bradman apart (probably), the best batsman who ever lived


*That was Robin Friday, obviously

 

[kyear2]

Wow. Considering who you have seen, that is a powerful statement.

 

[watson]

Barry Richards must have a had a big psychological impact on you at the time fredfertang. Those memories of 30 years ago seem something very special.

However, I think that an average of 70 is probably a bit high although Richards may have peaked at 70 after, say, 20 Tests. Graeme Pollock managed an average of 60 after 20 Tests so that figure is quite reasonable.

My gut feeling is that the batting average of Barry Richards would have settled down at 58-62 over the long term. Having to face Holding, Roberts , Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Sarfraz, Snow, Willis, Underwood, Prassana, Chandra etc over the course of 75-100 Tests would have eventually taken its toll on him.

Lastly,

Bradman apart (probably), the best batsman who ever lived

What is the probability that Barry Richards would have ended up as the UNDISPUTED second best batsmen of all-time after Bradman if he were allowed to play 75-100 Tests? I would say exceedingly high. I therefore agree with your sentiment.

 

[akilana]

i agree with the best poster around here

 

[smash84]

thank you