Mike Procter interview

[Cevno]

The former, basically. They are using the excuse that white people have no right to be talking to anyone else about racism to be racist themselves whilst at the same time decrying racism (from whites, generally) whenever they see it. Makes dealing with them kind of difficult, especially when they cite any attempt by others to say "no this is ****ed up, you can't be doing that" as racism. Especially ironic when the "****ed up" thing is ethnic cleansing of one kind or another, though that's certainly not the only case.

Well, yeah, that was my point. They're using 'white racism' as an excuse in effect to be racist.

I think that is more to do with how Countries and group of people react when told what to do by other countries or people regarding anything, rather than trying to copy the White people.

Ultimately, the reasons for racism or any other discrimination arise from local factors and others from outside getting involved without knowing the exact context and culture is not really ideal. It's something for that society as a whole to sort out between themselves and find a acceptable balance. Ofcourse, ethnic cleansing and Genocides are exceptions where large number of Human life's are at stake.

 

[Spark]

I think that is more to do with how Countries and group of people react when told what to do by other countries or people regarding anything, rather than trying to copy the White people.

Ultimately, the reasons for racism or any other discrimination arise from local factors and others from outside getting involved without knowing the exact context and culture is not really ideal. It's something for that society as a whole to sort out between themselves and find a acceptable balance. Ofcourse, ethnic cleansing and Genocides are exceptions where large number of Human life's are at stake.

The examples I'm talking about don't even crop up only when dealing with issues regarding discrimination and racism. It's anything at all, really. They moan "racist!" then go about their merry way, not minding a jot that they're being racist themselves towards some other ethnic group. I mentioned Thai/Vietnamese before, I've also heard a fair few unedifying stories from Japan/Korea too.

On an anecdotal level, there was one particular funny example in school where a Korean schoolmate of mine went to give a presentation on racism, cited all the traditional Western/'white' examples of racism as racism, then in-passing mentioned some reasonably well-known examples of racism in and around Korea but them passed them off as being 'cultural artefacts' or something like, and basically concluded that tl;dr racism = ~white man's fault~.

Bull****. If it looks like racism, walks like racism, barks like racism, it's ****ing racism.

EDIT: Ironic too given that he was always the first to cry RACISM whether in jest/no, then giving one of the most overtly racist serious presentations I saw at school.

 

[shankar]

The idea that individuals in society holding prejudices or stereotypes about some group, community, race etc... will lead to insurmountable social problems has no scientific basis whatsoever. The lived experiences in India wherever incredibly diverse communities have lived together peacefully for centuries is exactly opposite: The process of living together does not necessarily involve getting rid of all of one's false ideas about the other.

 

[Spark]

The idea that individuals in society holding prejudices or stereotypes about some group, community, race etc... will lead to insurmountable social problems has no scientific basis whatsoever. The lived experiences in India wherever incredibly diverse communities have lived together peacefully for centuries is exactly opposite: The process of living together does not necessarily involve getting rid of all of one's false ideas about the other.

You don't see the caste thing as a significant social issue...?

I'm talking about overt racial discrimination here ftr.

 

[shankar]

You don't see the caste thing as a significant social issue...?

I'm talking about overt racial discrimination here ftr.

Of course it is a fact that several castes even today experience discrimination owing to all sorts of reasons. Firstly, I am not convinced though that all of these instances cohere together as one phenomenon. Secondly, I am not convinced that prejudices, stereotypes etc.. have anything at all to do with the situation.

 

[Spark]

The discrimination is the whole point, not what leads to it.

 

[shankar]

The discrimination is the whole point, not what leads to it.

Our discussion is about what leads to it. If the contention that holding to prejudices about the other leads to massive social problems is true then india/asian societies needs to join the Enlightenment project and set about purifying itself from these prejudices. If it is not true as I am claiming, then that whole project is misguided.

 

[four_or_six]

We are at cross purposes here. Racism as understood here in the UK, which was the locus I was referring to when discussing the issue earlier, is largely about skin colour.

I think this depends very much where you live. Where I live, and have done for the past couple of years, there is a significant (25% is a conservative estimate) Eastern European population, and I have heard things when out in town, and also seen things on a more official basis, that are much much worse than things I have seen and heard when I have lived previously in areas where there were significant "non-white" populations. I have actually been pretty shocked about it tbh.

 

[CWB304]

I think this depends very much where you live. Where I live, and have done for the past couple of years, there is a significant (25% is a conservative estimate) Eastern European population, and I have heard things when out in town, and also seen things on a more official basis, that are much much worse than things I have seen and heard when I have lived previously in areas where there were significant "non-white" populations. I have actually been pretty shocked about it tbh.

The concept of 'race' is a confused muddle of physical (inherited) and cultural (learned) characteristics which are very difficult to disintengle. Anthropologists are moving away from the concept because it seems to have less and less scientific coherence and validity as they learn more about just how mixed up we all are.

Your post, like the earlier one referring to discrimination between Thais and Vietnamese as 'racism' is all too typical of the confusion as to what 'racism' actually is which characterises this thread.

A Pole, for instance, being an Indo-European (of the Slavic subgroup), is actually of the same 'race' as the majority inhabitants of the British Isles, be they Celtic, Anglo-Saxon or part of some other Germanic subgroup. A native Brit may make some nasty comments or discriminate against a Pole or other Eastern European (all of whom - with the exception of the Hungarians - are also basically Indo-European with small admixtures of from Turkic and Finno-Ugric such as the Avars, Bulgars, Khazars and Huns) but if the word is to have any meaning at all it cannot by definition amount to 'racism' as these newcomers are of the same 'race' as the majority population of the British Isles. It would paradoxically be only if the person doing the taunting or persecuting were to happen to be a non-Indo-European immigrant, would such behaviour amount to 'racism'.

Similarly the Thai and Vietnamese belong to the same 'race' of historically interconnected peoples who live in Southern China and South Eastern Asia. If these examples truly amount to 'racism', then a Lancastrian making rude comments or discriminating against a Yorkshireman, or vice versa, would also amount to 'racism'.

I've put 'race' and 'racism' in inverted commas throughout as I've always believed that we belong to one human race and that this obsession with 'racism' and the constant harping on about distinctions which I've said earlier are a confused muddle of physical and cultural characteristics is one of the primary causes of dissension between peoples and does little in fact to help under-privileged or disadvantaged groups.

 

[NasserFan207]

The concept of 'race' is a confused muddle of physical (inherited) and cultural (learned) characteristics which are very difficult to disintengle. Anthropologists are moving away from the concept because it seems to have less and less scientific coherence and validity as they learn more about just how mixed up we all are.

Your post, like the earlier one referring to discrimination between Thais and Vietnamese as 'racism' is all too typical of the confusion as to what 'racism' actually is which characterises this thread.

A Pole, for instance, being an Indo-European (of the Slavic subgroup), is actually of the same 'race' as the majority inhabitants of the British Isles, be they Celtic, Anglo-Saxon or part of some other Germanic subgroup. A native Brit may make some nasty comments or discriminate against a Pole or other Eastern European (all of whom - with the exception of the Hungarians - are also basically Indo-European with small admixtures of from Turkic and Finno-Ugric such as the Avars, Bulgars, Khazars and Huns) but if the word is to have any meaning at all it cannot by definition amount to 'racism' as these newcomers are of the same 'race' as the majority population of the British Isles. It would paradoxically be only if the person doing the taunting or persecuting were to happen to be a non-Indo-European immigrant, would such behaviour amount to 'racism'.

Similarly the Thai and Vietnamese belong to the same 'race' of historically interconnected peoples who live in Southern China and South Eastern Asia. If these examples truly amount to 'racism', then a Lancastrian making rude comments or discriminating against a Yorkshireman, or vice versa, would also amount to 'racism'.

I've put 'race' and 'racism' in inverted commas throughout as I've always believed that we belong to one human race and that this obsession with 'racism' and the constant harping on about distinctions which I've said earlier are a confused muddle of physical and cultural characteristics is one of the primary causes of dissension between peoples and does little in fact to help under-privileged or disadvantaged groups.

Right, but the fact is that 'racism', discrimination, however you see it, exists in the world and causes suffering, sometimes minor, sometimes major. The ins and outs don't matter.

 

[honestbharani]

Kinda stunned to discover people here saying what would or wouldn't offend them as a yardstick for what's okay. It's not about you.

kinda stunned that you don't get it is not about "you"" either.. There are 4 SC teams playing international cricket who may feel the same way some of the posters here have said.

 

[honestbharani]

I wish I could comment on this but I frequently get called and call people a mother****er and it's sister equivalent in Hindi about a zillion times a day without it causing any special offense.

For instance, In traffic in India, one frequently hears the aforementioned expletives but if say, Someone calls another bloke on the road a dirty, thieving Bihari/Tamilian in that scenario, It'd certainly cause more offense and probably cause a fight than calling him a sister****er which would most likely fall on dead ears. I don't really understand the entire Indian culture angle tbh. In real life, amongst the thousands of people I've met, once you meet them once or twice, calling them a mofo is something most people don't particularly care about but abusing them on their religious/regional identity is something they care about much more.

Dunno where Cevno and hb are coming from. Do they live in an ashram in the Himalayas or something?

lol.. the words you are talking about initiate just as much of a fumed response.. I dunno what warped area you have seen where these insults are taken in their stride. In the Chennai traffic, just as I was returning home yesterday, there was a brawl between two groups just because one of them had used the very words you say are very common..


Lets get this straight.. Those words are common insults. But they are just that.. "insults".. People do take offence. It does hurt people as much as it might do if their race was brought in as part of the insult.. You don't have to live in the HImalayas to understand reality. You just have to get off the high horse and take a walk near the chepauk on a Thursday..

 

[GIMH]

Can someone do one of the following things please:

1. Point out where anyone has said its okay to insult people
2. Tell all the straw men to stop posting ****

 

[honestbharani]

I can't believe people are equating racist abuse with what is essentially a schoolyard level 'your mum' joke.

I can't believe some people just do not understand what "different cultures" actually means..

 

[honestbharani]

Can someone do one of the following things please:

1. Point out where anyone has said its okay to insult people
2. Tell all the straw men to stop posting ****

3. Make GIMH follow his own advice.

 

[GIMH]

3. Make GIMH follow his own advice.

I'd love to know how that makes sense

 

[smash84]

___________

 

[honestbharani]

This

Literally the only way I would be offended by someone making a remark about my family would be if they actually knew them

It is very simple. Racism was a BIG issue in certain parts of the world. Not everywhere. In India, there is a fixation with fair skin. There has been a time when dark skinned people were not given the same opportunities that fair skinned people were.. But the bottomline is that it never reached apartheid levels. Things happened but some people emerged, fought through and paved the way for others and things have gone better as far as favoring fair skinned people goes.. Casteism is a different breed of the same animal but again, those have been fought against and things have been done to help people find opportunities and the country is in a better place now than it has ever been with respect to casteism. A caste based insult, in India, would be a pretty big deal but not a racist slur. It is just the way it is.. We never had an Apartheid type Government sponsored bigotry. It was never Black Vs White and therefore, it is just not that big of a deal to us, no matter how big a deal it seems to be to you...

 

[honestbharani]

The former, basically. They are using the excuse that white people have no right to be talking to anyone else about racism to be racist themselves whilst at the same time decrying racism (from whites, generally) whenever they see it. Makes dealing with them kind of difficult, especially when they cite any attempt by others to say "no this is ****ed up, you can't be doing that" as racism. Especially ironic when the "****ed up" thing is ethnic cleansing of one kind or another, though that's certainly not the only case.



Well, yeah, that was my point. They're using 'white racism' as an excuse in effect to be racist.

how is casteism using racism as an excuse? You have totally lost me there...

 

[Teja.]

lol.. the words you are talking about initiate just as much of a fumed response.. I dunno what warped area you have seen where these insults are taken in their stride. In the Chennai traffic, just as I was returning home yesterday, there was a brawl between two groups just because one of them had used the very words you say are very common..


Lets get this straight.. Those words are common insults. But they are just that.. "insults".. People do take offence. It does hurt people as much as it might do if their race was brought in as part of the insult.. You don't have to live in the HImalayas to understand reality. You just have to get off the high horse and take a walk near the chepauk on a Thursday..

Haha, what, I don't live in Chennai anymore, firstly. I've lived in Hyderabad, Bangalore and Chennai and now study in Rajasthan.

No, the word certainly does not lead to a fuming response in most circumstances.

Maybe, as you say, I have an extremely warped society at all points in my life across four states but I can call up 90% of my friends and call them a sister****er/mother****er in Hindi/Urdu/English/Tamil simply as a tag-on term with my sentences without them getting offended at all. If, for instance, I call someone from Bihar a cowbelt boy or someone from Jharkhand a junglee, these terms while prima facie much lesser insults than the aforementioned words due to the context are totally unacceptable.

I seriously find it hard to believe the society in general in India have a massive problem with family insults when every other sentence from a friendly exchange to a heated fight has madar****/Behn****( Urdu words for sister/mother etc. ) tagged on to it in most parts of the country.

In fact, It is the situation which exists even strongly at the lower economic sections of the society? Do you think auto drivers greet each other saying 'brother' or something? Sorry, bro.