*Official* English Football Season 2011-12

[sledger]

Yeah, but he's so much of a gun that he'd have beaten Vidic to it anyway.

 

[Ikki]

Scholes, Keane, Vieira and Lampard all clearly better than Gerrard.

None of them are clearly better at all. And even if they were, I said he was at worst in the top 5. You named 4.

Gerrard: PFA player of the year (and another runner up, lost to a sentimental choice in Giggs), FWA player of the year, PFA young player of the year, and 7 times included in the PFA team of the year (the most of any player, let alone midfielder, in the EPL era), and 5 times PFA player of the month (again, the most ever, equal with Rooney).

Yeah, IMO he gets in pretty easily, even without his European exploits. Personally, I put Scholes and Lampard on his level, Vieira and Keane probably slightly below them, but none had to do what he did and carry a team and none are as complete or as accomplished as him. His years between 03-09 are untouchable for me.

All great players, but his place in the XI is about as disputable as any other and no one has a clear claim - which was the suggestion GF made.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Wow @ the above. Just wow.

 

[cpr]

Its a good job everyone else were watching 19 other teams too.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Roy Keane at his best is still the most dominant midfielder I've ever watched play football. He was everywhere. He wasn't the best player I've ever seen, not even close, but he was immense. The centre of the park was his, and you were gonna bleed if you were going to take it.

In other news, I've been watching the last five minutes on repeat for 3 days. I don't think I'll ever get tired of it.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah Keane was an amazing player for United. Just bossed most everyone. Bit of a mad ****, but that's no bad thing.

Sm00teh, you must be rapt after the weekend.

 

[Jarquis]

wow @ the above. Just wow.

vms.

 

[Cevno]

Its a good job everyone else were watching 19 other teams too.

 

[Furball]

All great players, but his place in the XI is about as disputable as any other and no one has a clear claim - which was the suggestion GF made.

Apart from Keane, Scholes and Vieira, who are the standard bearers when it comes to midfielders who have played in England. You keep banging on about how much Gerrard's carried a team - Scholes in 02/03 just about single-handedly won the title for Man Utd. As far as individual performances go, Keane's performance in Turin in 1999 has anything Gerrard's ever done covered.

Lampard's better as well. At best, Gerrard is 5th in terms of central midfielders the Premier League has seen. I don't care how much he's carried an average Liverpool team; all of the above named have done it as well, and won plenty of medals for their troubles.

 

[roseboy64]

Vidic's absence is barely a mitigating factor at all, he was seriously dodgy last year. And in any case, Jonny Evans has been (against all expectations) actually quite a lot better this season than we could reasonably have expected Vidic to be. Besides, we've had a really good season in the league, the team's been SO much better than it was last season. United haven't won nothing because we're getting worse, Citeh have just raised the bar. Or, to put it less kindly, everyone else was comically bad last season.

Missed him like hell in Europe, though.

Hate stuff like this. He's had one bad season in his entire career as a first teamer including his loan deals and people are shocked when he pulls up his socks the next season and does well. FFS.

Vidic was missed though but a fully fit Fletcher was a bigger miss considering Carrick and Scholes were our only reliable midfielders all season really.

 

[roseboy64]

You were right though about him making too many mistakes before but that's acceptable considering youth and all. Cut them out for the most part this season. Made the odd bad decision but meh.

 

[Ikki]

Apart from Keane, Scholes and Vieira, who are the standard bearers when it comes to midfielders who have played in England. You keep banging on about how much Gerrard's carried a team - Scholes in 02/03 just about single-handedly won the title for Man Utd. As far as individual performances go, Keane's performance in Turin in 1999 has anything Gerrard's ever done covered.

A load of crap, really. Back as early as 04 Vieira admitted publicly that Gerrard was better than him and was in the top 3 midfielders in the world. This is the same year Vieira went a year undefeated with Arsenal. He changed his mind though, and called him outright best, not long after. Even Fergie said he was better than both Keane and Viera in 04. Remember, in 04, before Gerrard at his peak and his amazing seasons after.

"He has become the most influential player in England, bar none. Not that Vieira lacks anything, but Gerrard does more," Ferguson told the Sunday Times.

"To me, Gerrard is Keane. He is where Keane was when Roy came to us in 1993. Everywhere the ball is, he is there."

Ferguson would not be drawn on whether he would consider bidding for Gerrard, merely commenting that such a transfer would be "complicated".

But the Scot said any team in the world would like to have Gerrard in their team.

"He's got that unbelievable engine, desire, determination. Anyone would take Gerrard," he said.

"Vieira has done that job for Arsenal for two or three years. But you can see Gerrard rising and rising."

"I couldn't vote for Thierry Henry as the Player of the Year because you can't vote for your own team-mates," reveals Vieira. "So I voted for Gerrard. In my opinion he's in the top three midfielders in the world, maybe the best right now.

"I heard what Alex Ferguson said about him being better than me. He's probably right. Gerrard is England's best player and he single-handedly got Liverpool into the Champions League. He is the complete player. He can score, he has a great final ball, he can tackle and he drives his team forward. He is a winner on the pitch, which is why I really admire him.

"If Gerrard can stay 100 per cent fit and play to his best, I think England will have a great chance to go far in the tournament. It's going to be a great battle between us two. We have played against each other so many times, we know each other's game really well.

"England missed him badly at the last World Cup and he has made such a huge improvement as a player in the two years since then. Central midfield is such a difficult position to play. You have to defend, attack, score goals, protect the defence and tackle. So many things. And Gerrard can do them all.

"As soon as we are out there, if there's a tackle to be made, I will give it to him and he will give it to me. Maybe we will speak before the game and we will definitely shake hands after, but during the 90 minutes we have to give everything for our countries."

Keane's Turin performance may have one of Gerrard's awesome performances covered, but Gerrard made a career out of them. Keane? Not so much. Didn't have the game to exert his influence on both areas of the pitch. He has nothing like what Gerrard did in Istanbul or even Cardiff. Keane had a great force of will, but as a footballer he is some way off Gerrard.

No football fan who has watched football to even a decent level should make the claim that any of them carried their team like Gerrard - it is just absurd and revisionist. Gerrard is Lebron staying in with the Cavs and leading them to win everything bar the league title. Keane and Scholes the 80s Lakers, Vieira the 80s Celtics and Lampard the 00s Spurs.

Lampard's better as well. At best, Gerrard is 5th in terms of central midfielders the Premier League has seen. I don't care how much he's carried an average Liverpool team; all of the above named have done it as well, and won plenty of medals for their troubles.

So, again, you agree with me. At worst Gerrard is 5th. Lampard is a great player that I think gets the short end of the stick. There's little to separate him from the others but he is continuously left out in a lot of debates. But Lampard is no Gerrard. Despite Lampard playing in a better team for practically his whole career, surrounded by better players and almost always in his preferred position, their goal stats are pretty close - which is basically Lampard's best claim. Then again, the attacking end is kinda where it ends with Lampard. Unlike Gerrard, he was never asked to play elsewhere or to play a primarily defensive role.

Again, pick your favourites, I have no qualms about that. But don't ****ing pretend that Gerrard being in the XI - as he is almost all the time when these things come up - is somehow unjust or incomprehensible.

 

[TT Boy]

The Premier League 20 years team as voted by, well, everyone who voted:

Schmeichel; Neville, Vidic, Adams, Cashley; Ronaldo, Gerrard, Scholes, Giggs; Henry, Shearer

Not much to argue with there - Keane, Vieira, Cantona and Bergkamp probably the most notable omissions but it's hard to begrudge any of that lot their places in the team. Gerrard's inclusion at the expense of Keane and Vieira a small fan-voted consolation for his omission from the Top 10 players shortlist.

Stam or Colin Hendry in for Adams and somehow get Le Tissier in there. Got an issue with Shearer but record at Rovers was insane. Side is let down but its full backs. Probably take Steve Stone over Gerrard as well.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

**** me dead. This forum should introduce a twitter-like character count just so Ikki will **** off.

 

[PhoenixFire]

WD btw smith, i'm actually very pleased for you that city won.

 

[sledger]

Ikki, it strikes me that your standard MO is to get terribly upset when anyone disagrees with you, and demand that they justify themselves to you. But when you're asked to do the same, you fall back on opinions expressed by others (in this case quotes from various people, or in others youtube videos, or whatever), and never actually say why it is you hold the views you do. Gerrard doesn't automatically become a better player than Patrick Vieria because Patrick Vieira says so.

It's no wonder you rub people up the wrong way, repeatedly, when you swear and and suggest other people's views are "crap", but then respond with "my view's better, because here's a video". Sort it out ffs.

 

[Furball]

Also worth noting Vieira had been at the top for 8 years when he said what he said.

It's absolutely laughable that Gerrard's performance against West Ham is being compared to Roy Keane's against Juventus. They're not remotely close to being in the same ballpark.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Honestly, why do some people get so worked up over this? He's a Liverpool fan - here's a hint, it's natural to put forward the argument of a player who play's for your team. Gerrard was a top player and Vieira played against him several times, giving him amble evidence to judge the merits of him. It's not like Ikki is comparing Michael Carrick to Vieira and Keane.

 

[sledger]

Honestly, why do some people get so worked up over this? He's a Liverpool fan - here's a hint, it's natural to put forward the argument of a player who play's for your team. Gerrard was a top player and Vieira played against him several times, giving him amble evidence to judge the merits of him. It's not like Ikki is comparing Michael Carrick to Vieira and Keane.

Yeah, but we (or at least I) want to know what Ikki's opinion is. Not what Vieira's opinion is.

 

[Ikki]

Also worth noting Vieira had been at the top for 8 years when he said what he said.

Vieira was 28 and still in his prime - again, the Invincibles season - when he said that. Gerrard was in his early 20s. The fact that Vieira was at the top and Gerrard overtook him so early in his career goes towards my argument. The fact that Gerrard became even better should suggest why I have no time for your argument.

It's absolutely laughable that Gerrard's performance against West Ham is being compared to Roy Keane's against Juventus. They're not remotely close to being in the same ballpark.

It's laughable why? Because the team was inferior? Gerrard assisted a goal, scored two others and one of them is the greatest finals goals of all time in the last minutes of a match they were going to lose. Why did you stick to Cardiff? What about Istanbul? Keane can't compare to that performance.

-----

Sledger, it's pretty easy to see why I react in this way when people make these kinds of pronouncements. I have no problem with people saying Gerrard is not as good as either or all of Keane, Scholes, Vieira or Scholes. I disagree, but I don't have a problem with it.

I have a problem when you start putting a ceiling on him as if the others are just so much better that they're incomparable to him. It is like comparing Hammond, Tendulkar, Richards and Sobers and saying one of them can never be better than the others.