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CW All-Time XI

kyear2

International Coach
with kyear2 it seems that a great slip cordon is a requirement for being an ATG team.

I don't think a great slip cordon is something that makes a team great but rather an effect of having great bowlers
A great team needs to be great in ALL facets of the game, and nothing helps out great bowlers more than a great cordon. A great cordon is even more required with out great bowlers, because when that odd chance comes along it has to be taken.

To repeat, not more important than having great bolwers, but a great compliment to them. Please name me one great team of modern cricket that didnt excell in all three aspects of the game. Please just watch cricket, taking that rediculous half chance can often time help turn the tide in a close game, the great teams don't or rarely drop chances, it just facts.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
A great team needs to be great in ALL facets of the game, and nothing helps out great bowlers more than a great cordon. A great cordon is even more required with out great bowlers, because when that odd chance comes along it has to be taken.

To repeat, not more important than having great bolwers, but a great compliment to them. Please name me one great team of modern cricket that didnt excell in all three aspects of the game. Please just watch cricket, taking that rediculous half chance can often time help turn the tide in a close game, the great teams don't or rarely drop chances, it just facts.
So it is not really about the slip cordon as you say. It is just fielding in general.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
btw it is not really necessary for an ATG to be great in ALL facets of the game.

If they can win lots of games (preferably dominantly) and not lose over a significant period of time then the team will be an ATG team
 

Jager

International Debutant
btw it is not really necessary for an ATG to be great in ALL facets of the game.

If they can win lots of games (preferably dominantly) and not lose over a significant period of time then the team will be an ATG team
If a three-legged loses a leg, it falls, right?
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
btw it is not really necessary for an ATG to be great in ALL facets of the game.

If they can win lots of games (preferably dominantly) and not lose over a significant period of time then the team will be an ATG team
A team that fosters an attitude where mediocre levels of fielding are the result, will never be an all time great team.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
that is a fair point but then fielding is not restricted just to the slip cordon there is a lot more to it
 

Jager

International Debutant
that is a fair point but then fielding is not restricted just to the slip cordon there is a lot more to it
That being said, the slips cordon is probably going to get most of the catchers that fielders take. Not in all cases, but it's a fairly safe statement.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Really?

Read some time what Warne though about having Taylor and Waugh, then Hayden back there. Not as important possibly as againts the fast men, but nothing to sneeze at.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
that is especially not true if you have spinners operating
You're being obtuse for the sake of it.

Show me the number of innings in Test history where spinners have bowled more balls than a quick. I bet it's in the minority, just by one or two. Secondly, slips are important to spinners, and would probably take more catches from spinners than any other non-wicketkeeping position.

that is a fair point but then fielding is not restricted just to the slip cordon there is a lot more to it
As you can see, I never referred to slips.
A team that fosters an attitude where mediocre levels of fielding are the result, will never be an all time great team.
However, they're probably the most important fieldsmen in Test cricket. So all the things equal, a team with the sort of work ethic that reaches the top of the game will end up having players who work hard enough to be good slippers.

Fielding is the one part of the game where pure hard work and attitude has the greatest effect. Not everyone can be Mark Waugh, but I think the majority of Test cricketers can field like Shane Warne.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
so the question is how important it is to have an ATG slip cordon in order to become an ATG team? Given that on a scale of 1 to 5 (with 1 being lowest and 5 being highest) most slip cordons are probably on 3.5. Will it add a lot of value if you go to 4.5?
 

smash84

The Tiger King
or putting it like this.........how much more value to a team will a slip cordon of Taylor, Warne, and Waugh add compared to a slip cordon of Gibbs, Kallis, Amla?
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
so the question is how important it is to have an ATG slip cordon in order to become an ATG team? Given that on a scale of 1 to 5 (with 1 being lowest and 5 being highest) most slip cordons are probably on 3.5. Will it add a lot of value if you go to 4.5?
Of course it's important to have a good slip cordon. When do they get most of their catches? With the new ball. Who faces the new ball? Mostly, the best batsmen for the opposition. I mean, there's no such thing as an "all time great" slip cordon, at least on this forum and it's stats obsessed nature, because you can't quantify it. As an example, you're making up your own scale of slip-fieldingness because you can't wrap your head around cricketing concepts.

The question is not how much value you add, but how much value you lose by having a worse cordon.
 

Jager

International Debutant
Of course it's important to have a good slip cordon. When do they get most of their catches? With the new ball. Who faces the new ball? Mostly, the best batsmen for the opposition. I mean, there's no such thing as an "all time great" slip cordon, at least on this forum and it's stats obsessed nature, because you can't quantify it. As an example, you're making up your own scale of slip-fieldingness because you can't wrap your head around cricketing concepts.

The question is not how much value you add, but how much value you lose by having a worse cordon.
I'd never made the connection before, that's a true yet sad observation :(
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Of course it's important to have a good slip cordon. When do they get most of their catches? With the new ball. Who faces the new ball? Mostly, the best batsmen for the opposition. I mean, there's no such thing as an "all time great" slip cordon, at least on this forum and it's stats obsessed nature, because you can't quantify it. As an example, you're making up your own scale of slip-fieldingness because you can't wrap your head around cricketing concepts.

The question is not how much value you add, but how much value you lose by having a worse cordon.
ok...let's have it your way. How much value do you lose by having a slip cordon of Kallis, Amla, and Gibbs compared to a cordon of Taylor, Waugh, and Warne?

And no I am not really that stats obsessed.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Gibbs sliding in from backward point? And don't say that you're not stats obsessed when you're asking me to put a "value" on a subjective argument. Every drop is circumstantial, it depends on who they are dropping and when. There's no difference in the difficult of catching an edge off Donald Bradman or Chris Martin, but the effect of it is far different.

I haven't seen massive amounts of Amla in the slips, Kallis has always been pretty good, I'd compare him to a Warne, safe pair of hands without being spectacular.

I think it's very valuable having a high class slip cordon, it does win games of cricket. At Test match level, you can't afford to give chances. It's certainly a factor when selecting between two players if one can field in the slips, and it also makes it a lot harder to drop a guy if he's a very good slip fielder, even more than someone who is a good ring fielder.

Australia's cordon in the mid-1990s (Taylor, M. Waugh, Warne, S. Waugh at gully) was one of the reasons why they started to emerge as a dominant force when, on paper, their side wasn't that much greater than those they competed with. It's also why they struggled on the subcontinent to some extent, they lost a comparative advantage as not as many catches would go to slips on the lower and slower wickets.
 

kyear2

International Coach
ok...let's have it your way. How much value do you lose by having a slip cordon of Kallis, Amla, and Gibbs compared to a cordon of Taylor, Waugh, and Warne?

And no I am not really that stats obsessed.
I can not belive that you are still going on about this and deliberately trying not to get the point.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
what? Why would I deliberately not try to get the point?


I have accepted a number of vic orthodox's points (which would be your points as well but something which I couldn't see with your posting earlier) but I am still not sure how much value a great slip cordon will add compared to a decent or good one.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Warne's slip fielding is overrated. Kallis is a better slips fielder quite easily in my eyes.

Also while agreeing with the majority of what Vic is saying, perhaps the fact that smali has presumably watched most of his cricket in the sub-cont he considers other fielding positions such as bat pad, or silly mid on just as vital as the slips as they get good number of chances.

Therefore, Smali, may rightfully (IMO) consider David Boon one of the best fielders of all time. :)
 

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