Shaun Pollock

[NUFAN]

You've seemed to ignore my other posts. S.Africa had more than 3 players and especially in the 90s weren't that far off Australia. In ODIs they probably had an even better team than us during that time. I also listed the results of lesser teams than Australia, and of S.Africa, who were able to do something other than lose against us during our reign. So it doesn't quite cut it.

I'm not going to factor in ODIs, but I think your Tests theory is unusual. Its not as though Imran was part of the best team in the world throughout his career.

AB de Villiers vs Pieterson is another example. nobody talks about De Villiers yet Pieterson is already in most people's all time IX. I agree with IKKI stats alone can be misleading but accept the fact that players from those three countries are generally rated higher than players from other countries.

WTF. Who has KP in there all time XI's? Your theory is just nuts, Dale Steyn is rated the best fast bowler in the world, everyone thinks Kallis is the best all rounder or at worst second best with Shakib Al Hasan the other guy in contention who is obviously not from one of those 3 countries.

 

[unam]

MoM awards in test cricket

Man-of-the-Match Tables | Cricket News | Global | ESPN Cricinfo

Thanks Smali for bring MOM list. lol didn't know that Kallis was so high in that list and Pollock was in that list too.

 

[Spark]

Who on earth has KP in an all time XI? They need a slap.

 

[smash84]

Thanks Samli for bring MOM list. lol didn't know that Kallis was so high in that list and Pollock was in that list too.

 

[weldone]

But then Shane Warne failed against India, the best team of playing spin bowling. his record isn't too good against West Indies and Sri lanka either.

Disclaimer: When I told Ikki that 'you might have a point', I didn't necessarily mean 'I agree 100% with it, I always take this nit-picking of stats approach, and you are always consistent when you do it'

FTR, I very much rate all 3 of Kallis, Donald and Pollock. In my book, Kallis is a comparable bowler to Sobers while being a slightly (but definitely) worse batsman. Pollock is a comparable batsman to Imran while being a slightly (but definitely) worse bowler. Donald is comparable to someone like Wasim in bowling I would say. All 3 great cricketers in my book.

 

[Ikki]

But then Shane Warne failed against India, the best team of playing spin bowling. his record isn't too good against West Indies and Sri lanka either.

Warne vs India in India is about as good as anyone did in India vs India at the time - it's even better than Murali, his only close rival. Warne's record in WI is also ruined by 1 series during that period where he was consistently injured and almost ended his career. He never, other than that series, did poorly against them. He had famous performances in both forms of the game against them. Warne's record against SL is actually very good. At home, only 1 bad series, really and in SL has the best figures of any visiting spinner IIRC and even better ratios than Murali.

You want to pick at it, but his failures are mixed with successes and even his failures have mitigating circumstances. Is there a like situation with SA? I think not. And its different to comparing 1 player with a whole team underperforming. You're far more likely to get mixed results with a great player than a great team because the teammates can pick up the slack.

 

[unam]

I'm not going to factor in ODIs, but I think your Tests theory is unusual. Its not as though Imran was part of the best team in the world throughout his career.



WTF. Who has KP in there all time XI's? Your theory is just nuts, Dale Steyn is rated the best fast bowler in the world, everyone thinks Kallis is the best all rounder or at worst second best with Shakib Al Hasan the other guy in contention who is obviously not from one of those 3 countries.

I have seen couple of all time England IX on cricketweb with Pieterson in them.

 

[unam]

Fixed

 

[NUFAN]

I have seen couple of all time England IX on cricketweb with Pieterson in them.

So its gone from most peoples to a couple on CW. BTW what sport has KP made these IX's in? Baseball? Its XI.

 

[smash84]

So its gone from most peoples to a couple on CW. BTW what sport has KP made these IX's in? Baseball? Its XI.

didn't know you were so pedantic NUFAN

 

[Ikki]

I'm not going to factor in ODIs, but I think your Tests theory is unusual. Its not as though Imran was part of the best team in the world throughout his career.

I think the fact that I set the bar pretty low is even more damning for SA. Imran during his reign never lost to WI who had a much better team than he did. The SA I am talking about did nothing but lose.

He also ended up winning a WC with a team that wasn't the strongest. I think he, and others that played for weaker teams, generally pushed above their weight and aren't downgraded for not beating the best side of the time. Players like Lara, Tendulkar, Murali, Wasim, etc. But SA tended to have better teams and genuinely could have challenged Australia in at least one period and certainly in a whole form of the game. Yet they failed when it mattered in ODIs (WCs) and all the time in Tests.

So, in my opinion, it's not even comparable. If SA had some mixed success, then I probably wouldn't put this point forth. It's not even one I totally agree with. Yet it's always cited and, TBF, does have some semblance of truth.

 

[unam]

So its gone from most peoples to a couple on CW. BTW what sport has KP made these IX's in? Baseball? Its XI.

lol first Samli now this, maybe I should go to sleep.

 

[Rasimione]

I think the fact that I set the bar pretty low is even more damning for SA. Imran during his reign never lost to WI who had a much better team than he did. The SA I am talking about did nothing but lose.

He also ended up winning a WC with a team that wasn't the strongest. I think he, and others that played for weaker teams, generally pushed above their weight and aren't downgraded for not beating the best side of the time. Players like Lara, Tendulkar, Murali, Wasim, etc. But SA tended to have better teams and genuinely could have challenged Australia in at least one period and certainly in a whole form of the game. Yet they failed when it mattered in ODIs (WCs) and all the time in Tests.

So, in my opinion, it's not even comparable. If SA had some mixed success, then I probably wouldn't put this point forth. It's not even one I totally agree with. Yet it's always cited and, TBF, does have some semblance of truth.

Wtf? What does that have to do with this discussion? Aussies beat us Fact. But the perfomances of Polly cant be sniffed at. If your argurment holds, then the same must be aplied to Brian Lara. His team was always average. Should we discount his perfomance?

 

[vic_orthdox]

Wtf? What does that have to do with this discussion? Aussies beat us Fact. But the perfomances of Polly cant be sniffed at. If your argurment holds, then the same must be aplied to Brian Lara. His team was always average. Should we discount his perfomance?

No because he was the main reason why West Indies won a number of Tests against Australia.

 

[Ikki]

You're comparing the teammates Pollock had to Lara? And Lara managed to draw a series with Australia in 99 - almost did it singlehandedly. He also has wonderful stats against Australia to boot. How are they even alike?

 

[NUFAN]

You're comparing the teammates Pollock had to Lara? And Lara managed to draw a series with Australia in 99 - almost did it singlehandedly. He also has wonderful stats against Australia to boot. How are they even alike?

Its awesome for Lara that he was so good, but its not a huge deal that Pollock didn't manage to draw a series against Australia.

Sherwin Campbell managed to draw a series against Australia scoring a crucial 105 in one of the matches. Is he better than oh I don't know Herschelle Gibbs? Nein, he's not.

 

[Spark]

It's but one factor in many though.

 

[Ikki]

Its awesome for Lara that he was so good, but its not a huge deal that Pollock didn't manage to draw a series against Australia.

Sherwin Campbell managed to draw a series against Australia scoring a crucial 105 in one of the matches. Is he better than oh I don't know Herschelle Gibbs? Nein, he's not.

We're not comparing him to Sherwin Campbell though nor Herschelle Gibbs.

It seems counter-intuitive to me to laud a country/team with several great players who in your opinion need to be rated highly, yet that same team with many good to great players never drew against the best Team around, nevermind beat them. A feat most of the other teams managed.

FTR, I am slightly playing devil's advocate. I think this is a legitimate point; how much weight you want to put on it is upto you obviously.

 

[NUFAN]

It's but one factor in many though.

Meh. If Pollock performed awesomely, but ultimately he was just heroic in series defeat, I would rate him higher than him performing reasonable against Australia and him being part of a drawn series against the best team in the world.

The Lara example is a perfect example why he is rated so highly, the lack of a drawn series on Pollock's resume against Australia is such a minute factor.

 

[weldone]

Warne's record in WI is also ruined by 1 series during that period where he was consistently injured and almost ended his career.

One minor point here - if we are factoring in injuries, then MAK Pataudi was quite possibly the best cricketer ever.