So why do England play spin so abysmally now?

[Jono]

Hayden would be #2 probably just behind Flower.

Chanderpaul has been pretty awesome against India, but he surprisingly hasn't played in India that often. Must be thinking about him getting his runs in the WI.

 

[honestbharani]

Brian Lara says Hi! Indian spinners did get upper hand over him, especially Kumble. But he was all over SL and Pakistani spinners. We have missed the opportunity of seeing Warnaweera vs Lara battle (Warnaweera was even quicker than Kumble and spun it more, never played much due to his abrasie personality and ill discipline), wuld have been an epic.

HB was referring to India only I think. Lara never did as well vs. India compared to SL and Pak, as you say.

Flower is the best non-SC batsman I've ever seen play against Indian spin in India.

Hayden was ridiculously good in 2001, iirc.

Hayden would be #2 probably just behind Flower.

Chanderpaul has been pretty awesome against India, but he surprisingly hasn't played in India that often. Must be thinking about him getting his runs in the WI.

Yeah, I was referring to performances against India in India. And I do not think Kumble ever got the upper hand on Lara, and he himself stated that in an interview not so long ago.. I just think he never toured here after his very first tour back in 1993/94, when he had all of 3 tests to make a mark at a time when we were ridiculously good at home. Even then, I do not think it was the spinners who gave him the most trouble, although Raju did get him out a couple of times. Mohali, during that series, was seriously pacy and bouncy. Think Walsh broke Prabhakar's nose with one that just jumped off a length..


Hayden and Chanders are great picks but Flower was everything Chanders was plus he could go after the spinners when he wanted to.. And Hayden was ridiculously good only in 2001 and back then our second spinners were the mighty Sanghvi, Kulkarni, Bahutle etc. It was Harbhajan Singh and some change, so I would hardly classify that a "great" spin attack.. It was good because of Bhajji but wasn't much better than that.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Off-topic, but it's sad Harbhajan's gone off the boil so badly. You watch some of those old clippings, and he was genuinely threatening with his speed, dip, bounce. Wonder where it started unraveling.

 

[smash84]

over 3-4 seasons of IPL

 

[Jacknife]

They play spin fine, its playing it on subcontinental pitches they can't handle. The trajectory of the turn/bounce is different, plus they aren't used to the heat so their concentration wanders. In addition, once you are dismissed by spin cheaply a few times its easy to lose confidence, which is the death of batting against spin. You have to be aggressive, letting a good spinner settle is poor tactics.

Case in point with all this, the England batsmen are obsessed with sweeping, which works great where the bounce and turn are true, but on these types of slow low pitches its a death trap. You have to play straight and use your feet.

The big mystery is why Andy Flower hasn't sorted these guys out. The only reason I can think is that he's tried but they are too arrogant to change their 'methods'. Or maybe he just loves the sweep too much.

Plus some good bowling. At least against Pakistan, in this last test against SL I'd have to say it was more down to a big lack of confidence (and Galle was turning big tbf).

This. I would also add to that we haven't been to the SC in 4 years (except BD) hasn't helped matters, especially when you put that with the traditional problems English batsmen have had there. Now we have ended up having 3 tours there in the space of a year.

Like you say the main issue is simply confidence, it's almost written all over their faces when the spin comes on especially from both ends. Then it's compounded by the way they scratch around and end up becoming sitting ducks.

 

[wpdavid]

This. I would also add to that we haven't been to the SC in 4 years (except BD) hasn't helped matters, especially when you put that with the traditional problems English batsmen have had there. Now we have ended up having 3 tours there in the space of a year.

Like you say the main issue is simply confidence, it's almost written all over their faces when the spin comes on especially from both ends. Then it's compounded by the way they scratch around and end up becoming sitting ducks.

We have coped before though. 2000/2001 in Pakistan & Sri Lanka springs to mind - our first SC series in over seven years, so most of the squad had never played tests there before. Both opponents had a world class spinner at the peak of his powers (Saqlain & Murali respectively), plus reasonable supporting spinners. And yet we never looked like losing a test in Pakistan, and scored enough runs to win 2 of the 3 in SL.

These things can be done if you have some sort of game plan and the batsmen are smart enough to take it on board.

 

[Jacknife]

We have coped before though. 2000/2001 in Pakistan & Sri Lanka springs to mind - our first SC series in over seven years, so most of the squad had never played tests there before. Both opponents had a world class spinner at the peak of his powers (Saqlain & Murali respectively), plus reasonable supporting spinners. And yet we never looked like losing a test in Pakistan, and scored enough runs to win 2 of the 3 in SL.

These things can be done if you have some sort of game plan and the batsmen are smart enough to take it on board.

I agree to a certain extent and in 2000/01 they exceeded all expectations, playing some awesome cricket that winter but within this group, I feel the long lay off between tours hasn't done them any favors at all. This has then obviously been compounded by the very good bowling they faced from the Pakistani's, then that in turn had the knock on effect of just about the whole top 6 suffering from loss of form and confidence, which as we have seen is not a good place to be. Funnily enough England have being doing it to sides for the past coupe of years.

 

[wpdavid]

Inspired by the 'Best XI' you have seen thread

England's best top 6 in the SC that I've seen:

Amiss
Gooch
Gatting
Gower
Thorpe
Greig

 

[Jacknife]

Inspired by the 'Best XI' you have seen thread

England's best top 6 in the SC that I've seen:

Amiss
Gooch
Gatting
Gower
Thorpe
Greig

Never got to watch Amiss but I can't argue with the others. I remember Botham being pretty good on the SC and Boycott has a pretty good record there. Interesting that Cook averages more than Gooch there, Gooch's 39 to Cook's 43, saying that so does Strauss which is a bit of a surprise.

 

[Pothas]

Got those twin tons against India in that test we lost.

What's Collingwoods record like? Have forgot him very quickly and I was never a fan but my word we could have done with him this winter.

 

[wpdavid]

(re. Strauss) Got those twin tons against India in that test we lost.

I think Strauss may also have got a ton when we beat India in the final test in 2006. It's easy to forget how good he has been, tbf.

Amiss was awesome in the 1970's against Bedi, Chandra, Venkat & Prasanna. No way I could leave him out.

 

[BoyBrumby]

What's Trescothick's record like down there? Seem to recall him smacking 170-odd in the first test of our 05/06 Pakistan tour.

 

[wpdavid]

What's Trescothick's record like down there? Seem to recall him smacking 170-odd in the first test of our 05/06 Pakistan tour.

Tres also made a very good 100 at Galle in 2001.

 

[GIMH]

I think Strauss may also have got a ton when we beat India in the final test in 2006. It's easy to forget how good he has been, tbf.

Yeah good shout, pretty sure he did.

What's Trescothick's record like down there? Seem to recall him smacking 170-odd in the first test of our 05/06 Pakistan tour.

193

Still can't believe we lost that match

 

[flibbertyjibber]

We are only crap against mystery spin really. Showed in this test that orthodox spin can be played successfully. It is wrist spin and chuckers we have major problems against.

The series in India later this year will be a difficult test but the Indian spinners aren't as good as what Pakistan have so it will be interesting to see how they go.

 

[smash84]

We are only crap against mystery spin really. Showed in this test that orthodox spin can be played successfully. It is wrist spin and chuckers we have major problems against.
.

IIRC Abdur Rehman isn't a wrist spinner

And I foresee England having a it of trouble against pace bowling when SA land in England later this year

 

[Spark]

We are only crap against mystery spin really. Showed in this test that orthodox spin can be played successfully. It is wrist spin and chuckers we have major problems against.

The series in India later this year will be a difficult test but the Indian spinners aren't as good as what Pakistan have so it will be interesting to see how they go.

Herath's figures in the just-completed are seriously good tbf

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yeah, it's good spin, regardless of orthodoxy or legitimacy of how it's delivered, that we struggle with.

Neither Herath or Rehman could have any questions asked about their actions and both turned (ha) in some seriously good figures against us.

Incidentally, is Herath's 19 (IIRC) wickets in a two test series a record?

 

[Spark]

Nah. Murali (predictably) holds that record with 22.

 

[smash84]

England play spin so abysmally these days because of this

Saeed Ajmal Doosra v West Indies - YouTube