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CW50 2nd Edition (aka WWIII) - No 21 - 30

G.I.Joe

International Coach
I agree then. I thought you were saying that allrounders were intrinsically less useful at higher levels, but you weren't really.
I did mean it in a sense about the more rounded all-rounders like Botham and Kapil though. They wouldn't add anything significant to either the batting or bowling at that level. Miller, Imran and Hadlee have a case because of the quality of their stronger suit.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Same with me. I always find a place for Gilchrist in my all time XI but find it a tad unfair on others if I include him in top 25 or so. Very similar is the case of openers. Other than Hobbs no one else makes it to my top 20, but I still have to find a second opener who wouldn't be in top 11 in a list. As a matter of fact, the second highest rated opener in my list was Hutton at #25.
I only included one opener in my 25 (well two really, but Goddard wasn't picked as a specialist batsman). I had Gavaskar, Hutton and Bruce Mitchell in my top 50 but they missed they cut. It does make me think I slightly under-rate exactly how much harder opening is compared to middle order batting.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I did mean it in a sense about the more rounded all-rounders like Botham and Kapil though. They wouldn't add anything significant to either the batting or bowling at that level. Miller, Imran and Hadlee have a case because of the quality of their stronger suit.
Yeah I get that with specific players. At first I thought you weren't thinking outside the box enough and couldn't comprehend the idea of a allrounder who was to the level above Test cricket what Miller and Kapil were to Test cricket, but it was actually me who was thinking too much inside the box in that I hadn't considered the theoretical possibility of a level even beyond that to marginalise that theoretical player too. Infinite loop really, I do agree though. It makes players like Kapil, Miller etc better Test players than players who'd have much more utility in a World XI situation, and I agree with that.
 
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The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
I only included one opener in my 25 (well two really, but Goddard wasn't picked as a specialist batsman). I had Gavaskar, Hutton and Bruce Mitchell in my top 50 but they missed they cut. It does make me think I slightly under-rate exactly how much harder opening is compared to middle order batting.
Goddard's an interesting one - where did you rank him? A very fine and very valuable cricketer, no question, but not one I'd personally have anywhere near my all time top 25.

Also - given that he's not going to be on the list - where did you rank Lohmann?
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Goddard's an interesting one - where did you rank him? A very fine and very valuable cricketer, no question, but not one I'd personally have anywhere near my all time top 25.

Also - given that he's not going to be on the list - where did you rank Lohmann?
I had Goddard at #12; I think he's the most under-rated cricketer in history (as I'd probably have to to rank him so high) - he was world class with both bat and ball over a loooong career as well as being one the great unlikely captains. A cricketer in the purest sense. I highly doubt anyone else ranked him in their top 25, let alone that high, but he's my bolter I guess.

Lohmann was #47. He's someone I used to have right up there in AT World XI contention until I started working on my standardised averages project and realised just how weak the batting lineups he played against/how bowler-friend those wickets actually were. When a bowling average of 10 standardises to over 25 then you definitely have to raise some eyebrows. Nevertheless a standardised average of 25 well and truly puts him in great company and his First Class record doesn't tend to suggest his Test record was obtained purely due to his to minnow-bashing prowess, so I squeezed him into my 50.
 
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Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
Agree with PEWS Re all-rounders. He made some great examples with Pollock and McGrath and Andrew McDonald and James Pattinson IMO.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Lohmann was #47. He's someone I used to have right up there in AT World XI contention until I started working on my standardised averages project and realised just how weak the batting lineups he played against/how bowler-friend those wickets actually were. When a bowling average of 10 standardises to over 25 then you definitely have to raise some eyebrows. Nevertheless a standardised average of 25 well and truly puts him in great company and his First Class record doesn't tend to suggest his Test record was obtained purely due to his to minnow-bashing prowess, so I squeezed him into my 50.
Ah, I obviously haven't seen your latest standardised averages - in the last version I saw Lohmann had standardised from 10 up to 15 so he was still ahead of anyone else. Didn't realise he'd blown out so badly in the latest iteration.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Ah, I obviously haven't seen your latest standardised averages - in the last version I saw Lohmann had standardised from 10 up to 15 so he was still ahead of anyone else. Didn't realise he'd blown out so badly in the latest iteration.
The first version of my standardised averages merely took eras into account, and it did it pretty broadly (decades). The newest version takes specific opposition home or away into account and (for example) instead of treating a game played in 1912 as being part of the 1911-1920 decade, treats is as being part of 1910-1914 period (two years either side of the year of match start). So it's a lot more accurate now, rather than just standardising era differences. To give a real and specific example, the old system recognised Lohmann's debut as being "a match in the 1880s" while the new system recognises it as "a home match against Australia in 1886". That put Lohmann's demolition of South Africa into much better context.

I didn't completely base my list on that new list but it's definitely helped form some of my views with the appropriate contextual research; Lohmann's standing being one.
 
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The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
The first version of my standardised averages merely took eras into account, and it did it pretty broadly (decades). The newest version takes specific opposition home or away into account and (for example) instead of treating a game played in 1912 as being part of the 1911-1920 decade, treats is as being part of 1910-1914 period (two years either side of the year of match start). So it's a lot more accurate now, rather than just standardising era differences. To give a real and specific example, the old system recognised Lohmann's debut as being "a match in the 1880s" while the new system recognises it as "a home match against Australia in 1886". That put Lohmann's demolition of South Africa into much better context.

I didn't completely base my list on that new list but it's definitely helped form some of my views with the appropriate contextual research; Lohmann's standing being one.
Fantastic stuff. Linky?
 

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