So why do England play spin so abysmally now?

[Contra]

Uhh... what? Marsh only batted three times in that series (and the other one he forgot to review one he'd missed by about three inches). Hughes also got a century. That only really leaves Ponting, Watson, Khawaja (who only had two proper digs, both at Galle) and Haddin who you'd say really struggled, which is hardly terrible.

If the 2nd Test had actually somewhere close to full time available, we'd have won and won with ease. Saying we were pretty **** in SL is so far from the truth it's not funny. We were the better side in that series by a long, long way. It's starting to get on my nerves now, really, people continually harping on about how **** we supposedly are away from home despite the fact that we weren't beaten in our last two away series, and how rubbish we'll be on the subcontinent when we deservedly won our last series there.

Keep in mind that I was specifically referring to your ability of playing spin, I wasn't referring to your bowlers or your team as a whole and how they didn't deserve the win or whatever else your harping on about. Your batting against spin is still under scrutiny, and it's not a surprise to see that only the already established spin players stood up in that series for the most part. Hughes scored a ton at SSC wow shocker...

You've mainly won that series due to your bowlers not your batsmen. Ponting is gonna go in another year (probably sooner), then all you have is Clarke and Hussey who also doesn't have much time left. Hardly a line up that gives you worries on the SC.

Also keep in mind that the SL attack is probably even worse than India's (although it's very marginal lol). So you faced the weakest of the big three.

 

[Uppercut]

I'm not sure they'll ever be able to compete with subcontinental batsmen when it comes to playing spin, especially in the subcontinent. But it's interesting that they're so far behind the Aussies at it- perhaps the question should be "why don't Australian batsmen struggle against spin more?"

Maybe it's an attitude thing. Australian batsmen like to 'dominate' the bowler, which makes it really tough for a spinner to settle on a length. But then, it's been a bit disastrous when it comes to playing swing lately. English batsmen tend to be quite stoic by comparison. Every ball on its merit and all that jazz. Unlike most international batting lineups they don't constantly nick out trying to drive outswingers through the off side, but it's tough to play spin the same way.

 

[wpdavid]

My problem with the view that we've always been hopeless in the SC and that we simply can't cope with alien conditions is that recent history just doesn't support it in the slightest. Looking at results in India, Pakistan and SL since the turn of the millennium and before the UAE series, we lost 8 out of 23. Now that isn't a stellar performance, especially when you consider that we only won 4 of those 23 tests, but it's light years away from what we've seen in 2012. More typically, we had usually been drawing our test matches in the SC, but we haven't looked remotely like doing that in recent weeks..Throw in the fact that the attacks we've faced this year have probably been weaker than those we faced from 2000 to 2008, and you end up scratching your head and wondering wtf has happened.

I don't have a complete answer for that, btw. I suspect that the structure of the county game in recent years hasn't helped, but our test batsmen wouldn't be playing many CC games anyway.

 

[GIMH]

On our tour of India in 08 I felt it was the bowling rather than the batting where we fell short as well.

 

[wpdavid]

On our tour of India in 08 I felt it was the bowling rather than the batting where we fell short as well.

Yup. Hard to believe now that we were actually able to declare our 2nd innings in the test that we ended up losing when they chased down however many it was. Thinking about it, our top 5 in that mini-series must have been almost identical to the current lineup? Apart from Trott of course, and he's been the least of our problems. All very odd.

EDIT
OK- we declared with 9 down, which isn't quite as I remembered it. And the batting wasn't quite as solid as I thought - very dependent on a couple of guys making big hundreds. Still preferable to the current version, of course.

 

[GIMH]

I recall Strauss and Pietersen batting well and Freddie going okay, could be mistaken. Performances as a whole weren't embarrassing with the bat though, as you say.

 

[NasserFan207]

They play spin fine, its playing it on subcontinental pitches they can't handle. The trajectory of the turn/bounce is different, plus they aren't used to the heat so their concentration wanders. In addition, once you are dismissed by spin cheaply a few times its easy to lose confidence, which is the death of batting against spin. You have to be aggressive, letting a good spinner settle is poor tactics.

Case in point with all this, the England batsmen are obsessed with sweeping, which works great where the bounce and turn are true, but on these types of slow low pitches its a death trap. You have to play straight and use your feet.

The big mystery is why Andy Flower hasn't sorted these guys out. The only reason I can think is that he's tried but they are too arrogant to change their 'methods'. Or maybe he just loves the sweep too much.

Plus some good bowling. At least against Pakistan, in this last test against SL I'd have to say it was more down to a big lack of confidence (and Galle was turning big tbf).

 

[Burgey]

Keep in mind that I was specifically referring to your ability of playing spin, I wasn't referring to your bowlers or your team as a whole and how they didn't deserve the win or whatever else your harping on about. Your batting against spin is still under scrutiny, and it's not a surprise to see that only the already established spin players stood up in that series for the most part. Hughes scored a ton at SSC wow shocker...

You've mainly won that series due to your bowlers not your batsmen. Ponting is gonna go in another year (probably sooner), then all you have is Clarke and Hussey who also doesn't have much time left. Hardly a line up that gives you worries on the SC.

Also keep in mind that the SL attack is probably even worse than India's (although it's very marginal lol). So you faced the weakest of the big three.

Tell me, with the spinners being produced by the SC teams ATM, Ajmal aside, do you need be anything other than just competent to cope? Not like Ashwin, Herath et al pose a threat like Murali/ Kumble/ early Harby is it?

 

[Spark]

I'm not sure they'll ever be able to compete with subcontinental batsmen when it comes to playing spin, especially in the subcontinent. But it's interesting that they're so far behind the Aussies at it- perhaps the question should be "why don't Australian batsmen struggle against spin more?"

Maybe it's an attitude thing. Australian batsmen like to 'dominate' the bowler, which makes it really tough for a spinner to settle on a length. But then, it's been a bit disastrous when it comes to playing swing lately. English batsmen tend to be quite stoic by comparison. Every ball on its merit and all that jazz. Unlike most international batting lineups they don't constantly nick out trying to drive outswingers through the off side, but it's tough to play spin the same way.

That is partly it because that is how you have to play spin, but a bigger part of it is simply down to the batsmen in the middle order. Regardless of overriding philosophy, Ponting/Clarke/Hussey are always going to do alright against spin as a unit.

Having said that, I don't rate Shane Watson that highly against spin at all but half his Test tons have come in the subcontinent () so he's at least somewhat competent...

 

[Contra]

Tell me, with the spinners being produced by the SC teams ATM, Ajmal aside, do you need be anything other than just competent to cope? Not like Ashwin, Herath et al pose a threat like Murali/ Kumble/ early Harby is it?

Quite frankly, it's not so much the spinners as it is the pitches your playing on. If a place like India can produce wickets like the one we had vs WI in the first test at Feroz Shah Kotla regularly, then quite frankly it doesn't matter whether you have Kumble or Harby or Ashwin or Randiv or Bishoo or whoever. As long as you can toss the ball up and bowl half decently you will pick up wickets.

When your playing on grounds like SSC, UAE (the pitches in the SA series) and Ahemdabad though.. then it doesn't matter whether you have Murali or Warne or Ajmal they won't do all that well.

 

[Burgey]

Quite frankly, it's not so much the spinners as it is the pitches your playing on. If a place like India can produce wickets like the one we had vs WI in the first test at Feroz Shah Kotla regularly, then quite frankly it doesn't matter whether you have Kumble or Harby or Ashwin or Randiv or Bishoo or whoever. As long as you can toss the ball up and bowl half decently you will pick up wickets.

When your playing on grounds like SSC, UAE (the pitches in the SA series) and Ahemdabad though.. then it doesn't matter whether you have Murali or Warne or Ajmal they won't do all that well.

No, it's both. You're wrong to think an Indian spinner, any old spinner, just need turn up at home and roll his arm over to take wickets. India isn't treated like a 3rd world other planet by Australians now like it was 20-30 years ago.

 

[Contra]

No, it's both. You're wrong to think an Indian spinner, any old spinner, just need turn up at home and roll his arm over to take wickets. India isn't treated like a 3rd world other planet by Australians now like it was 20-30 years ago.

"at home" is not what I said, at home + spinning wickets is what I said. Doesn't matter what the other countries think of us, or if they prepare better or not. A spinning wicket is a spinning wicket, and spinners will take wickets on it simple as that. If you've got a sporting wicket and are not bowling well that means the batsmen are playing you well and you give them credit, that's all there is to it.

If we get wickets like we did in the 90's then there is no reason not to think we can't roll sides over with our spinners. Problem is that we only get a proper spinning wicket like once in frigging 3-4 series. Which is the ****ty part.

 

[Spark]

I think that the pitches factor can be overplayed and IMO certainly is being overplayed by some on here, but more importantly by the English batsmen. There is no way in hell these pitches are as difficult as they seem to think they are.

 

[Burgey]

"at home" is not what I said, at home + spinning wickets is what I said. Doesn't matter what the other countries think of us, or if they prepare better or not. A spinning wicket is a spinning wicket, and spinners will take wickets on it simple as that. If you've got a sporting wicket and are not bowling well that means the batsmen are playing you well and you give them credit, that's all there is to it.

If we get wickets like we did in the 90's then there is no reason not to think we can't roll sides over with our spinners. Problem is that we only get a proper spinning wicket like once in frigging 3-4 series. Which is the ****ty part.

That and your spinners are ****.

 

[Jono]

Put Ashwin and Ojha on a turner and they'll run through teams.

 

[Burgey]

Put Ashwin and Ojha on a turner and they'll run through teams.

Not if those teams are decent (as opposed to exceptional) players of spin they won't. Because they aren't that good.

 

[Jono]

Well I can't really respond because I don't know what your definition of decent compared to exceptional players of spin are. But square turners clearly even up the playing field.

 

[vic_orthdox]

At the moment, don't really see Ojha running through anyone. Just not quite penetrative enough, he needs the batsman to come at him a bit.

 

[Burgey]

Well I can't really respond because I don't know what your definition of decent compared to exceptional players of spin are. But square turners clearly even up the playing field.

Well if you're talking a track like the one Clarke took 6-9 on, then sure. But if you're talking about similar decks to the ones England has faced in the UAE and SL so far, which is the basis for the thread, then if you're up against those blokes, you don't need to be Tendulkar/ Sehwag/ Clarke/ Doug Walters good to score runs. You just don't need to want to eithe block everything or sweep it.

 

[Arachnodouche]

^I think you're either giving their performances abroad too much credence or you're just not an astute observer of cricket in India in general. Alone, they might prove to be slightly ineffectual, but put them together in tandem on a half helpful track, with fielders crowding the bat, and I can guarantee they'll be posing a very significant threat to most batting line ups.

For this English lineup, I wouldn't even mind bringing Harbhajan back and having a three pronged spin attack. Too bad we don't have a Ganguly to take the shine off the new ball anymore.