***Official NBA Thread***

[dontcloseyoureyes]

I'm implying that the way Young will see it is "this fool the same age as me". It's how most people work, especially people overconfident in their own ability.

 

[duffer]

This article explains the Denver trade a lot better. Still not totally sold on it, he may have been dogging it after getting paid but his value being such a unique player wouldn't have dropped too much and you could've gotten a better player in a package.

Just against this constant accumulation of assets with not attempts at landing a big big player at any point.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Haha I posted that to tonnes of people yesterday, suprised I forgot here.

 

[Jono]

Played some of this last night:

 

[Adamc]

Prowls/duffer/smitteh etc,

How did the likes of Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell etc have such ridiculous rebounding stats? I assume higher pace and more minutes had something to do with it, but still seems out of proportion. Did people suck at shooting back then or what?

Yours in basketball,

f00lins

 

[nightprowler10]

Never done much research on this but from what I know, all of what you said plus they were freaks of nature. They were both said to have 40 - 50" vertical leaping ability, could bench ridiculous amounts well into their 30s, so they could muscle their way in and easily out jump anybody else in the league to grab a significant amount of their teams rebounds. I remember reading that many teams that didn't necessarily have good jump shooters would be forced to take shots near the perimeter as anything in the paint would swiftly sent back by them, so I'm sure that was a factor.

That said, what's really ridiculous is that Dennis Rodman apparently outrebounded them all. Apparently when you take into account all the rebounds available to be had in a given game, Worm grabbed the highest percentage in NBA history.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

This is crazily over-simplfying it, but they were 7-foot athletic black men with comparable athleticism to the players today in a league of white guys who couldn't jump and just took jump shots. It's how Wilt scored so much as well, he was 30 years ahead of his time in terms of athleticism.

 

[Fusion]

this is crazily over-simplfying it, but they were 7-foot athletic black men with comparable athleticism to the players today in a league of white guys who couldn't jump and just took jump shots. It's how wilt scored so much as well, he was 3 years ahead of his time in terms of athleticism.

+1

 

[nightprowler10]

This is crazily over-simplfying it, but they were 7-foot athletic black men with comparable athleticism to the players today in a league of white guys who couldn't jump and just took jump shots. It's how Wilt scored so much as well, he was 30 years ahead of his time in terms of athleticism.

I think that's understating it a bit actually. Their athleticism was comparable to superstars today. Russell was the same height as LeBron IIRC and had his vertical as well. Whereas Wilt was 7' with the same vertical. Just ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that Russell was an undersized C compared many other bigs of the era yet dominated them all, including Wilt.

The whole "athletic black men playing against slow white guys" thing is overplayed IMO. Artis Gilmore was a great specimen as well and played in a similar era, but never played at the same level as those two. I have no doubt guys like Wilt and Russell would dominate if they played today (just not to the same level). They were simply extremely intelligent when it came to rebounding and defense (except Wilt could never figure out how to win!). Honestly believe Russell would make Dwight his bitch with his mind games.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

I think that's understating it a bit actually. Their athleticism was comparable to superstars today. Russell was the same height as LeBron IIRC and had his vertical as well. Whereas Wilt was 7' with the same vertical. Just ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that Russell was an undersized C compared many other bigs of the era yet dominated them all, including Wilt.

The whole "athletic black men playing against slow white guys" thing is overplayed IMO. Artis Gilmore was a great specimen as well and played in a similar era, but never played at the same level as those two. I have no doubt guys like Wilt and Russell would dominate if they played today (just not to the same level). They were simply extremely intelligent when it came to rebounding and defense (except Wilt could never figure out how to win!). Honestly believe Russell would make Dwight his bitch with his mind games.

Comparable to the superstars today is pretty much what I meant, though tbh I think you're overstating their athleticism anyway. Comparing general sport science now to what it was then as well as health and nutrition standards, the overall level of fitness and athleticism is a lot higher than it was then. Scrubs like Gerald Green aren't superstars but their athleticism is out of the building.

And the race angle really isn't overplayed, it's the truth. The game was supremely different then to how it is now, it was thought about differently and coached differently. African American players were still frowned upon and not given prominent roles (if any at all) in college and in sports. Offences were funnelled through jump shooters and passing the ball, away from the strengths of the more athletic black players of the time. Wilt and Bill were the players that changed that (especially Wilt) and because of them (and following them, Kareem, Dr. J, Frazier etc) the game has changed to what it is today.

I don't disagree about Russell and Dwight (I think Dwight would be a blubbering mess after facing either of them) but they wouldn't put up the insane numbers now that they did then because the general stand of fitness and athleticism makes points harder to score and rebounds harder to get. There's small forwards who can guard centers now, there's point guards who can get you 10 rebounds a game. It's a different animal now.

 

[Ikki]

I think that's understating it a bit actually. Their athleticism was comparable to superstars today. Russell was the same height as LeBron IIRC and had his vertical as well. Whereas Wilt was 7' with the same vertical. Just ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that Russell was an undersized C compared many other bigs of the era yet dominated them all, including Wilt.

No, he didn't. His team may have won more trophies, but he definitely did not dominate Wilt. Wilt scored a ****load against him and out-rebounded him regularly. IIRC they have almost 150 games against each other and Wilt averaged almost 30 points and 30 rebounds a game against him.

The whole "athletic black men playing against slow white guys" thing is overplayed IMO. Artis Gilmore was a great specimen as well and played in a similar era, but never played at the same level as those two. I have no doubt guys like Wilt and Russell would dominate if they played today (just not to the same level). They were simply extremely intelligent when it came to rebounding and defense (except Wilt could never figure out how to win!). Honestly believe Russell would make Dwight his bitch with his mind games.

I am not sure how much weight you can put on it; but Wilt and Russell have an interview on YT where they say players of their own era were actually physically tougher.

 

[duffer]

Has anyone looked at the numbers of their teamates?

 

[Fusion]

So the Mavs finally realized there was no point in playing Odom and have agreed to part with him. What a colossal waste of time for both parties. His heart is clearly not into playing basketball at the moment and there was no player I detested more for his lack of effort than Odom. Good luck to him next season and good riddance.

 

[Anil]

So the Mavs finally realized there was no point in playing Odom and have agreed to part with him. What a colossal waste of time for both parties. His heart is clearly not into playing basketball at the moment and there was no player I detested more for his lack of effort than Odom. Good luck to him next season and good riddance.

i don't think it was because his heart was not into basketball, for mine he just became too attached to the lakers and didn't want to play anywhere else...seems to be a hyper-emotional guy, certainly not the best example of professionalism...based on what happened next, even his demand to be traded was a completely emotional reaction which he probably regretted as soon as it actually happened...

 

[Fusion]

i don't think it was because his heart was not into basketball, for mine he just became too attached to the lakers and didn't want to play anywhere else...seems to be a hyper-emotional guy, certainly not the best example of professionalism...based on what happened next, even his demand to be traded was a completely emotional reaction which he probably regretted as soon as it actually happened...

I agree with you. I was being kind to Odom when I said his heart wasn't into playing basketball. Like you said, he just didn't want to play for anyone besides the Lakers. For a professional athlete (one who was the 6th man of the year to boot) to put up that sorry display night in and night out was inexcusable IMO. I have never detested a Mavs player more than I did Odom (and I have some sorry ones to choose from!).

 

[duffer]

They're listing him as inactive in the hope of trading him, but where is he going to go? If he wasn't happy at the defending champions and a team who really wanted him where will he be happy again? He's not going back to the Lakers. This guy is done unless he has an epiphany of sorts sometime soon. Feel sorry for the Mavs, he should've been a great replacement/upgrade for Caron.

 

[Fusion]

He's probably going to be traded at the end of season along with a draft pick. Hence the **** will probably cost the Mavs two first round draft picks! I can't describe how much that annoys me.

 

[nightprowler10]

Sucks for the Mavs but you have to wonder if there is deeper issue at play here. Didn't he just have to deal with some rough personal stuff in off season? Would explain why he got so emotional after trade talks.

 

[nightprowler10]

Comparable to the superstars today is pretty much what I meant, though tbh I think you're overstating their athleticism anyway. Comparing general sport science now to what it was then as well as health and nutrition standards, the overall level of fitness and athleticism is a lot higher than it was then. Scrubs like Gerald Green aren't superstars but their athleticism is out of the building.

And the race angle really isn't overplayed, it's the truth. The game was supremely different then to how it is now, it was thought about differently and coached differently. African American players were still frowned upon and not given prominent roles (if any at all) in college and in sports. Offences were funnelled through jump shooters and passing the ball, away from the strengths of the more athletic black players of the time. Wilt and Bill were the players that changed that (especially Wilt) and because of them (and following them, Kareem, Dr. J, Frazier etc) the game has changed to what it is today.

I don't disagree about Russell and Dwight (I think Dwight would be a blubbering mess after facing either of them) but they wouldn't put up the insane numbers now that they did then because the general stand of fitness and athleticism makes points harder to score and rebounds harder to get. There's small forwards who can guard centers now, there's point guards who can get you 10 rebounds a game. It's a different animal now.

Good post. I still maintain that Wilt at least was as athletic as most players today, which is why people of his time considered him a freak of nature. How many guys playing in the NBA right now do you (hypothetically) see guarding Kareem and blocking his skyhook? Hell, Wilt was well in to his 30s when he was swatting away the unstoppable shot.

As for your last paragraph, in my mind, if a guy like Kevin Love (unathletic, doesn't exactly live in the paint) can lead the league in rebounding and constantly have 20+ rebounds in a game, why can't guys like Wilt and Russell get similar numbers to what they were getting then? Completely agree on the points though.

 

[nightprowler10]

No, he didn't. His team may have won more trophies, but he definitely did not dominate Wilt. Wilt scored a ****load against him and out-rebounded him regularly. IIRC they have almost 150 games against each other and Wilt averaged almost 30 points and 30 rebounds a game against him.

This is gonna seem like a cop out, but by Wilt's own admission, Russell always let Wilt play his game and rack up statistics while the C's beat Wilt's team in the playoffs. Russell knew that Wilt lacked that winning mentality and took full advantage of it whenever he could.