***Official*** South Africa in New Zealand 2012

[Mike5181]

"Both Rob and Andrew have shown promise against South Africa in limited overs cricket and we believe they can transfer their form across to the Test matches,"
Littlejohn added.

 

[BackFootPunch]

I'm not trying to deride what I think is a pretty good group of players, but I can see why there's negativity about the squad announcement. The reason some of those players don't have question marks over their places is because the public and indeed the selectors have little confidence in the reserves - the very players that have caused negative reactions to the squad announcement. If New Zealand had more players genuinely pushing for places then Guptill and Southee would probably get the arse or at least be under the spotlight, but it's very hard to imagine such a thing at the moment as it'd take an awful lot of under-performance to consider dropping Southee for Arnel or Guptill for .. I don't even know who the reserve opener would be anymore, but it wouldn't be pretty. This isn't a criticism of Guptill or Southee as such because every player will have troughs and periods of poor performance, but of the bare cupboard when it comes to potential replacements in such cases.

Fair points but you really summed up the whole problem with one word there. If everyone was fit surely the only change to the probable starting XI would be the inclusion of Brownlie instead of Nicol. Yet a lot of people still seem to be pretty negative about the team. We're one player away from our best XI. You're absolutely right about a lack of depth meaning there's no pressure on Guptill, Williamson, Southee etc but that's a hypothetical argument. There is no opener in first class cricket who has been averaging 50 for two seasons and is a realistic prospect at this stage. There's no bowler who's banging the door down with bag loads of wickets.

I guess my point is that the negativity about the team or squad seems really pointless given that we're hardly leaving out someone who deserves a spot. Perhaps be negative about our domestic system that (arguably) isn't producing enough international quality players but we bet Australia in Australia for the first time in a couple of decades only three months ago so we're not in the worst position ever.

 

[Mixmasterreece]

Ross Taylor (c) – Central Stags
Brent Arnel – Northern Knights
Trent Boult – Northern Knights
Doug Bracewell – Central Stags
Andrew Ellis – Canterbury Wizards
Martin Guptill – Auckland Aces
Chris Martin – Auckland Aces
Brendon McCullum – Otago Volts
Rob Nicol – Canterbury Wizards
Tim Southee – Northern Knights
Daniel Vettori – Northern Knights
BJ Watling – Northern Knights
Kane Williamson – Northern Knight

Ellis
Arnel
Nicol

Shoot me now.

 

[Immenso]

Fair points but you really summed up the whole problem with one word there. If everyone was fit surely the only change to the probable starting XI would be the inclusion of Brownlie instead of Nicol. Yet a lot of people still seem to be pretty negative about the team. We're one player away from our best XI. You're absolutely right about a lack of depth meaning there's no pressure on Guptill, Williamson, Southee etc but that's a hypothetical argument. There is no opener in first class cricket who has been averaging 50 for two seasons and is a realistic prospect at this stage. There's no bowler who's banging the door down with bag loads of wickets.

I guess my point is that the negativity about the team or squad seems really pointless given that we're hardly leaving out someone who deserves a spot. Perhaps be negative about our domestic system that (arguably) isn't producing enough international quality players but we bet Australia in Australia for the first time in a couple of decades only three months ago so we're not in the worst position ever.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. No negativity from me.

I'm pleased we can move on from Ryder, I just see him as an over-hyped distraction.
With Brownlie, Flynn, Broom, Ryder out of contention for the number 5 spot. That's a serious test of depth by NZ standards. And if the result is a punt on Nicol to transfer his ODI promise to test matches - then is that so bad?

Nicol has been a solid provincial player with over 4000 FC runs, who has changed his game and become an attacking opener. How he'll handle the elevation to test cricket, we'll have to wait an see but I'm excited about it.

The rest of the team picks itself, I love the balance of it. I've really liked this selection panel despite the 'Pie" stuff which seems to be ignored anyway. They show logic and none of the scatterbrain Turner era thinking.

There is plenty of depth in the bowling ranks with Gillespie, Arnel (and when he qualifies) Wagner putting the pressure on. Dry pitches sees Nethula pushing the weakest seamer out.

Batting depth; there's plenty of competition for the middle order as per the players mentioned above. Especially if you consider Guptill also as a potential middle order player if a decent opener does appear on the scene.

There is really only little competition for the opening spots and the spinner.

Ellis & Wells confuse the fans & media. but I see this as emergency cover by the selectors in case there is an emergency injury n the morning of the test (I hope this is how the selectors/Wright sees it). I actually rate Wells (as a batsman) as I have seen one of his FC centuries and it was superb, albeit against a Wgtn attack of Edwards/Tugaga/Lamb plus spinners.

 

[Scaly piscine]

I'd drop Southee in a heartbeat. Underperforming and completely full of himself.

Needs a reality check.

It's amazing how cricket in NZ seems to have this dire culture of unwarranted arrogance amongst it's youth.

Yep NZ need to give Southee the elbow, they've got enough viable options to replace him particularly since Chris Martin is engraved into the XI. NZ can pick as many batsmen as they like they're all crap so their best chance is an extreme pitch - a low scoring seamer/new ball pitch or a really flat road that even New Zealand can score runs on. I think the low scoring seamer/new ball pitch is the best route because South Africa are such a top heavy side and I'm not sure there's anything flat enough for New Zealand to score runs on against South Africa's attack.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Yep NZ need to give Southee the elbow, they've got enough viable options to replace him particularly since Chris Martin is engraved into the XI. NZ can pick as many batsmen as they like they're all crap so their best chance is an extreme pitch - a low scoring seamer/new ball pitch or a really flat road that even New Zealand can score runs on. I think the low scoring seamer/new ball pitch is the best route because South Africa are such a top heavy side and I'm not sure there's anything flat enough for New Zealand to score runs on against South Africa's attack.

Pretty blunt, but I agree with most of it. Except that there probably isn't anyone who can replace Southee as they're injured.

 

[Mixmasterreece]

Pretty blunt, but I agree with most of it. Except that there probably isn't anyone who can replace Southee as they're injured.

Hopefully next year he is f*cked with Small, Wheeler, Milne, Wagner etc all breathing down his neck.

Im sick and tired under achievers (with attitudes like their world class) like him and ryder polluting NZ cricket.

 

[Mike5181]

Hopefully next year he is f*cked with Small, Wheeler, Milne, Wagner etc all breathing down his neck.

Im sick and tired under achievers (with attitudes like their world class) like him and ryder polluting NZ cricket.

+Henry

 

[Mixmasterreece]

+Henry

Cant say Ive ever seen him bowl, but when I saw him included in that NZC offseason camp I took notice.

Any good? (averaging 17 in both forms so looks promising)

 

[Mike5181]

Cant say Ive ever seen him bowl, but when I saw him included in that NZC offseason camp I took notice.

Any good? (averaging 17 in both forms so looks promising)

Yeah, looks promising for a 20 year old. I uploaded a few of his wickets from the Ford Trophy on Youtube.

Matt Henry Ford Trophy - YouTube

 

[straw man]

Pretty blunt, but I agree with most of it. Except that there probably isn't anyone who can replace Southee as they're injured.

True perhaps for pure bowlers until Wagner qualifies. Though if Southee continues to struggle and our batting collapses a few times this series (which it will, that's guaranteed), he could be replaced by an all-rounder. Wouldn't be surprised if Nethula debuts against the Windies either, so that's additional pressure.

Edit: Obviously with Southee the potential is all still there - he needs to start making it count this series though.

 

[Flametree]

Yep fair enough on van Wyk. All I meant is he'll feel he's aggrieved having scored such a weight of Plunket Shield runs whereas Nicol's first class averages in the last few seasons read 19.50, 38.8, 32.05, 32.07 and 28.50 this summer. So basically he's been called up on the basis of ODI knocks v Zimbabwe and 'potential'.

Those are scary numbers.

Even scarier thought - imagine if Ross Taylor hasn't quite got over his injury and damages himself again in his next match.

I would have added Franklin to the playing 11 and put Vettori back to 8 for the Dunedin test at least. Dunedin has had a miserable last 5-6 weeks weather-wise, (after a fantastic December/early Jan), and I doubt there will be more than 3 days' play. Bowlers will get plenty of rest and three seamers plus a Franklin would be enough. Even better, it would have been a good excuse to drop Southee.

If Philander and Steyn hit their straps, three days may be plenty long enough to get a result, of course.

 

[Mike5181]

Even if they were going a different route to Franklin do you think they even considered Van Wyk's South African and has had prior exposure to bowlers like we will face in the first test?

 

[SteveNZ]

Cant say Ive ever seen him bowl, but when I saw him included in that NZC offseason camp I took notice.

Any good? (averaging 17 in both forms so looks promising)

I rate Henry really, really highly. Saw him bowl in that one-dayer at the start of the youtube clip above and he was very sharp. Nice measured run-up, pretty economical sort of action and looks like he can crank it up when he wants to.

He's got NZ written all over him. Check out his T20 batting strikerate too...

 

[Days of Grace]

Franklin should have been the no.5 over Nicol, IMO.

Franklin has good domestic form, deserves another chance, and Nicol is an opening batsmen, FFS. Once again, we have middle-order batsmen opening and openers batting in the middle order.

How long since we have had specialist openers and specialist middle-order players in the same team? Sad indictment for NZ cricket's domestic structure.

Maybe Ryder wasn't in contention for a test place, anyway, just reading between the lines. Fair enough at this stage, but I am just so disappointed. After all the excitement around the win in Australia, this was supposed to be the marquee event of our summer.

Maybe I'm being too negative too early. After all, it was our four seamers who won the Australian test. I am with Scaly: need green pitches. Our batsmen would find a way to get themselves out on a highway against Bangladesh.

Finally, disappointed that Vettori, our test no.6, has gotten out again in the 30s today. Was hoping to see him ton-up in the Plunket Shield at some stage.

 

[Howsie]

Southee just needs a good kick in the ass. You're kidding yourself if you don't think he's one of New Zealand's best bowlers.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

He needs to take more wickets at a lower average to justify selection, which he is not doing regardless of how much "talent" he apparently has.

 

[Flem274*]

Vettori will come good with the bat when it counts. He always does.

On paper, the batting looks crap, but Wright has nailed every selection so far this summer. Bracewell was brought out of nowhere and Brownlie was the guy chosen from a big list of candidates (at the time, most are injured or out of form now) and he appears to have been the right choice.

Ellis doesn't look much, but he rips up the Plunket Shield and there isn't a batsman or bowler in that competition he hasn't dealt with, including players we all want to see play tests, so despite appearances he's one of the best players in the country. I think he deserves a chance to prove himself. Weird that Wells has lost his place to him on the back of a few ODI cameos.

Nicol's selection is based on some interesting logic, but when he was a middle order batsman for Auckland he was decent so hopefully we see that side of him and not the "average just over 30 opening in FC" bit.

This series must be about make or break for Southee. There's a long queue behind him. Guptill is in the same boat, but to a much lesser extent. It really depends on an opener without any previous chances smoking it in the back half of the Shield. If Nicol scores runs then I could see him getting promoted as well.

 

[Flem274*]

Southee just needs a good kick in the ass. You're kidding yourself if you don't think he's one of New Zealand's best bowlers.

...

He needs to take more wickets at a lower average to justify selection, which he is not doing regardless of how much "talent" he apparently has.

Yep. He's not one of our best bowlers if he gets dropped and someone does better.

 

[Flametree]

The funny thing about Nicol is that he probably went up to open because he figured that's where the gaps in NZ's line-ups usually are and if he wanted to make the step up, he'd probably have to do it as an opener. So he produces some fairly... mediocre numbers as an opener and ends up in the supposedly well-stocked middle order.

I know that making runs in first class cricket is no guarantee that you'll make it in test cricket.. but it's surely more of an indication than not scoring runs in first class cricket. Every once in a while a player comes along who can average a lot more at test cricket than in first class cricket but the phenomenon usually only lasts a very short while. Hamish Marshall is a good example.

Having said that, the selectors do have my sympathy - with injuries, form, and, er, Ryder being Ryder, the options seem to have been including a third wicketkeeper in the top 7 (fashionable, Zim and SL are doing the same...) or giving yet another recall to a guy who monsters first class bowlers but averages barely 20 - and is suspect against quick bowling - after a lot of chances at the test level.