Goodbye RT Ponting 'the ODI player' - you were a legend.

[ganeshran]

SRT has always been a decent and safe fielder, never a lightning fast one who pulls off catches like the premier fielders can. But the difference between them being 15 runs per match is very hard to believe.

 

[stephen]

I doubt Ricky saves 15 runs a game in comparison to the worst of fielders.15 runs per game more than Sachin?Fair dinkum?I find it hard to believe.While I cant honestly claim to of watched all of Sachin's career I'd wager he was above average as a fielder for most of his career.150+ wickets aint a joke; not everyone can give it a burl and take 150 wickets.Also reckon Sachin gets undersold when there is talk of pressure.A quick cricinfo search tells me that he is the most successful batsman in WC's, has performed adequately in 3 WC SF and 2 WC QFs and has 3 MoM awards to his name against Pak in WC's. That is as hard as it gets for the Indians in terms of pressure. Done well in a number of other finals too by the looks of his stats.No contest in ODIs for mine. Sachin has done
more than Ricky and for longer!

Sachin's World Cup stats are great. He has the most runs, the most hundreds and the highest average. The things that count against him are these - 1) 3 of his 6 hundreds are against minnows (2 vs Kenya, 1 vs Namibia); and 2) he's never anchored a world cup final win.

That's not exactly a whole lot to hold against the guy. In fact, I'd quite rightly hail him as a genious for what he's done in WCs. Ponting, however, has been in 3 WC winning sides, has made 4 of his 5 WC centuries against test nations and has made two of those centuries at key moments in the World Cup Campaign (2003 final, 2011 quarter final).

Given Ponting's usefulness in the field and as an ODI skipper, I'd suggest that in important games in the World Cup, Ponting is the guy you'd pick ahead of Tendulkar. Here are their respective stats against top 8 teams in World Cups. As you can see there's not much between them:

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[robelinda]

Sachin's World Cup stats are great. He has the most runs, the most hundreds and the highest average. The things that count against him are these - 1) 3 of his 6 hundreds are against minnows (2 vs Kenya, 1 vs Namibia); and 2) he's never anchored a world cup final win.

That's not exactly a whole lot to hold against the guy. In fact, I'd quite rightly hail him as a genious for what he's done in WCs. Ponting, however, has been in 3 WC winning sides, has made 4 of his 5 WC centuries against test nations and has made two of those centuries at key moments in the World Cup Campaign (2003 final, 2011 quarter final).

Given Ponting's usefulness in the field and as an ODI skipper, I'd suggest that in important games in the World Cup, Ponting is the guy you'd pick ahead of Tendulkar. Here are their respective stats against top 8 teams in World Cups. As you can see there's not much between them:

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Also, Sachin has had 2 world cups at home, Ponting never played a single world cup at home. Ponting comes out way ahead for me, to do all that AND do it all away from home is immense.

 

[benchmark00]

And Ponting barracks for North Melbourne.

 

[Jono]

Ninth Melbourne*

 

[benchmark00]

New Richmond theme song "We Finished 9th again" - YouTube

 

[Ikki]

Nobody is saying he was good enough to be a specialist bowler. He was decent in the role which was assigned to him which was to bowl a few overs now and then. It just adds to his CV and is measurable easily whereas the fielding stuff of Ponting you quote is from your memory and he might not be as good as you think he is if you go through data. Think thats what a lot of people in the thread are taking exception too. Could be wrong. But I never am.

Not that I want to reopen the debate, but to clarify: my point is that what you may consider a good contribution only so happens to be because he is a part-timer, and not a full-time bowler. In a match though, regardless, if a bowler is going for 5 per over and takes 1 (or none) wicket then it counts against your team all the same - which ironically describes the grand majority of Tendulkar's bowling innings.

I think there are actual stats for catching and direct hits or affected run-outs; but not for runs saved, etc.

 

[Spikey]

Ricky Ponting: He's no Virat Kohli

 

[Midwinter]

Ricky Ponting: He's no Virat Kohli

Was once, but aint no more

 

[Shri]

Not that I want to reopen the debate, but to clarify: my point is that what you may consider a good contribution only so happens to be because he is a part-timer, and not a full-time bowler. In a match though, regardless, if a bowler is going for 5 per over and takes 1 (or none) wicket then it counts against your team all the same - which ironically describes the grand majority of Tendulkar's bowling innings.

I think there are actual stats for catching and direct hits or affected run-outs; but not for runs saved, etc.

Yeah? We haven't seen any run out stats so far. Link me to it.

 

[Ikki]

I will try to find it. I remember an article on Cricinfo with it. I am not sure how to get it directly with Statguru. Anyone know? Also, there is a robelinda video with an hour's worth of run-outs...maybe you can watch through that and count LOL.

Found it: 58.

 

[abmk]

Sachin's World Cup stats are great. He has the most runs, the most hundreds and the highest average. The things that count against him are these - 1) 3 of his 6 hundreds are against minnows (2 vs Kenya, 1 vs Namibia); and 2) he's never anchored a world cup final win.

Point 1 is totally invalid IMO .....

His 98 vs Pak in 2003 was easily his best innings in a WC ......
Then 97 vs SL in the same WC
90 vs Aus in 96 WC
70 vs WI in 96 WC chasing just 174 ( a low scoring match)
84 vs NZ in 92 WC
85 vs Pak in 2011 WC - a scrappy and lucky innings, but still the only other 50 in the match was Misbah ( who hit a few runs when the match was virtually over )

How much lesser than a century are these innings really ?Most of these were in wins ( 5 out of 7 )...

Funnily even none of his 3 centuries vs non-minnows resulted in a win ( two losses and a tie ) ........

So I'd take 70 or 80 or 90

Point 2: I'd put the 2011 WC final against him as a failure , but the 2003 one ? Chasing 360 vs an attack having Mcgrath/Lee ?? That's close to impossible ....

That's not exactly a whole lot to hold against the guy. In fact, I'd quite rightly hail him as a genious for what he's done in WCs. Ponting, however, has been in 3 WC winning sides, has made 4 of his 5 WC centuries against test nations and has made two of those centuries at key moments in the World Cup Campaign (2003 final, 2011 quarter final).

Given Ponting's usefulness in the field and as an ODI skipper, I'd suggest that in important games in the World Cup, Ponting is the guy you'd pick ahead of Tendulkar. Here are their respective stats against top 8 teams in World Cups. As you can see there's not much between them:

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

If we for a moment take out Aus for Sachin and Ind for Ponting, considering only common oppositions, Sachin's average and S/R are better by some margin ....Again, except for the recent WC, Aus attacks have generally been superior to the Indian ones ...Not saying we should remove those entirely for comparison, but we do need to take that into account ...

Sachin better vs common opposition, Ricky better vs India than Sachin vs Aus by some distance ...... Sachin has done better vs the minnows ....

Any WC match vs Pak is a pressure game for India, Sachin has won 3 Man of the Match awards out of 5 .....Had good contributions in other crucial matches as well ..... I don't think he's any lesser than Ponting in a crucial WC match at all ..

 

[abmk]

No, two crap part-timers wouldn't take the place of a proper full-time spinner. If Tendulkar was economical, I could see his use. But he wasn't. He was, overall, a pretty crappy bowler who had some innings of note.

Again, a total misunderstanding of the usage of a part-timer ...... Jeez, even the Yuvraj example didn't help, did it ?

Provided the part-timers are in good form/conditions favor them, teams many a time go in with 2 decent part-timers and just 4 specialist bowlers ..... Again see the Yuvraj example and actually think about it.

If you "expect" the part-timer to be nearly as economical as a full-timer, he wouldn't be a "part-timer" !!!!

@ bold part: Who mentioned two crap part-timers ? I said 2 decent part-timers. If you think Sachin was a cr*p part-timer, well then your knowledge is woefully indequate

Maybe in the Indian team. Overall? Average IMO. I am saying, the comparison seems inane. You are comparing a skillset that Tendulkar is not even that decent at to one where Ponting is arguably the greatest ever at.

no, he's not an average fielder overall. Clearly above average .... Probably the best throwing arm amongst regular fielders in the deep after Lee/Sanath since the 90s IMO ... pretty safe catcher as well ...

Not my fault if you've been busy watching only the Aus team since Ponting hit his peak and only saw Sachin since his resurgence post 2007 ( when he had slowed down with age as a fielder )

Actually, he was a pretty good captain tactically in ODIs. I feel people keep hitting him with criticisms of his captaincy which are more relevant to Tests. As a ODI captain he was very good.

He was below average as a captain in tests, average in ODIs IMO ... One of the captaincy gaffes of his in ODIs that remains etched in my mind is him completing Mick Lewis' quota of overs , but not Lee's in that 434-438 match

 

[abmk]

I will try to find it. I remember an article on Cricinfo with it. I am not sure how to get it directly with Statguru. Anyone know? Also, there is a robelinda video with an hour's worth of run-outs...maybe you can watch through that and count LOL.

Found it: 58.

cool. Just checked the same for Sachin, its 21.....

Wonder why cricinfo doesn't have this in statsguru ....Cricket fans should hound them to have this + provide separate info for "indirect" hits

 

[unam]

Didn't follow the whole thread, but seems like there is comparison going on between Sachin and Ricky. Overall in ODI I would say they both are pretty equal. Sachin does have more runs at higher strike rate with higher Average but as far as I remember most of his runs came in not so important matches such as group stage games or chasing small totals etc. this doesn't mean he is not one of the best ODI batsmen. this just means that the runs that Sachin scored don't value to his team as much as the runs Ricky scored value for his team.
AND I do think that fielders like Ponting and Symonds do save on average 10 more runs per game than average fielders. On top of that, you have to take in account the catches that they take and the number of batsmen they run out.

 

[ankitj]

Ponting > Tendulkar => Pollock > McGrath

 

[kingjulian]

I have no interest in this argument. I know from experience that arguing against Ikki is a futile exercise and you are better off breaking your head against a brick wall...

But here is a solution for you to tackle your impasse...

Tendulkar
Matches: 459
Wickets: 154
Catches: 139
Runouts: 21

So fielding contribution per game = (154+139+21)/459 = 0.68

Ponting
Matches: 375
Wickets: 3
Catches: 160
Runouts: 58

So fielding contribution per game = (3+160+58)/375 = 0.58

May be Ponting's difference in saving runs can make up for that gap and may be some more...make your own conclusions from it..

 

[Sparkley]

Also, Sachin has had 2 world cups at home, Ponting never played a single world cup at home. Ponting comes out way ahead for me, to do all that AND do it all away from home is immense.

Thats a flimsy argument,WC's at home are far more unforgiving as far as pressure goes, which goes a long way in explaining why only one home team has won in 10 attempts.I'm being the devil's advocate here but you could also argue that Sachin has played 2 WC's in the SC and 4 outside, Ricky has played 3 outside the SC and 2 inside. Away records are more important in tests anyways where Sachin is comfortably ahead.Sachin averages 40+ everywhere and 50+ in more countries.Ricky averages less than 50 away from Oz actually!Love Ricky but gotta put things in perspective.

 

[Sparkley]

I have no interest in this argument. I know from experience that arguing against Ikki is a futile exercise and you are better off breaking your head against a brick wall...

But here is a solution for you to tackle your impasse...

Tendulkar
Matches: 459
Wickets: 154
Catches: 139
Runouts: 21

So fielding contribution per game = (154+139+21)/459 = 0.68

Ponting
Matches: 375
Wickets: 3
Catches: 160
Runouts: 58

So fielding contribution per game = (3+160+58)/375 = 0.58

May be Ponting's difference in saving runs can make up for that gap and may be some more...make your own
conclusions from it..

Interesting to say the least!

 

[Jono]

How much would Ponting and the rest have shaved off McGrath's bowling average?

blah blah blah, therefore Wasim > McGrath [/thread derail]

This is a great point. I guess from this Murali > Warne in ODIs as well.