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Goodbye RT Ponting 'the ODI player' - you were a legend.
- Thread starter robelinda
- Start date
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Play ten Ponting-level fielders and save 150 runs a game. Even if your bowlers are rubbish and concede a theoretical 400 then you've only conceded 250.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Actually, I'd say it definitively made Australia the better side in matches with his fielding. It's hard to substantiate since you can't count the number of runs saved but you do count wickets taken, so the comparison is rather arbitrary. He was also an example out there and put a standard for his teammates. These things are hard to evaluate. In terms of strict runs/balls, fielding is only a negation. Meaning, Ponting taking a wicket or stopping runs doesn't come at a cost of a ball - it is something extra. Whereas bowlers take wickets with the knowledge they are conceding time and runs. That might make it sound even more complicated but I'd put it to you that every run-out Ponting made is more valuable than a wicket Tendulkar took. I'd rather have a player who is guaranteed to run-out one player than one that will take a wicket bowling.
Tendulkar was kind of handy in the beginning, but let's be clear here; his bowling was not a factor enough to give him any real points when you consider his whole career. I'd put it to you that had Ponting bowled enough of his medium-pace he'd take wickets at a comparable rate. 1 wicket every 3 games averaging 44.40? Come on. You could count the number of times Tendulkar changed games with his bowling on your two hands, and in a 459-match-ODI-career that many moments of sheer brilliance simply aren't enough.
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ganeshran
International Debutant
@ first bold part: But of course Tendulkar providing better balance to the team with an extra bowling option isn't a factor like that, right ? There should be no points for his bowling, right
Never mind that he was handy as a part-timer .....
Anyways you'd have a point regarding Ponting's fielding if Sachin was a poor fielder, but he wasn't. Sachin was by some distance above average fielder. Yeah, Ricky was exceptional, still , the difference in fielding doesn't cover Sachin's added ability as a part-timer ....
Ponting was an average captain in ODIs ... That's not that much of a positive by any means in my book
Add to that Sachin being the superior bat, Sachin comes out the clearly better LOI cricketer ...
@ second bold part: LOL, really, why didn't bowl much at all then ..... You think Ponting could bowl that last over in the Hero Cup in 93? or take a five-fer vs a Bevan-led chasing Aussies ( already just over 200 for 3 in 30 overs chasing 300 )
Oh and yeah evaluating part-timers just by their average/SR is probably the worst thing to do ...
Spark
Global Moderator
No he wasn't.@ first bold part: But of course Tendulkar providing better balance to the team with an extra bowling option isn't a factor like that, right ? There should be no points for his bowling, right
Never mind that he was handy as a part-timer .....
Anyways you'd have a point regarding Ponting's fielding if Sachin was a poor fielder, but he wasn't. Sachin was by some distance above average fielder. Yeah, Ricky was exceptional, still , the difference in fielding doesn't cover Sachin's added ability as a part-timer ....
Ponting was an average captain in ODIs ... That's not that much of a positive by any means in my book
Add to that Sachin being the superior bat, Sachin comes out the clearly better LOI cricketer ...
@ second bold part: LOL, really, why didn't bowl much at all then ..... You think Ponting could bowl that last over in the Hero Cup in 93? or take a five-fer vs a Bevan-led chasing Aussies ( already just over 200 for 3 in 30 overs chasing 300 )
Oh and yeah evaluating part-timers just by their average/SR is probably the worst thing to do ...
Daemon
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Haha true. Should add 5 runs to the averages of McGrath for every game he played with Ponting and Symonds
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Tendulkar bowled less than 3 overs per match on average. What balance? He was neither a wicket-taking bowler nor an economical one. He was, as aforesaid, a 'throw-the-kitchen-sink' tactic for the grand majority of the time.@ first bold part: But of course Tendulkar providing better balance to the team with an extra bowling option isn't a factor like that, right ? There should be no points for his bowling, right
Personally, I see Tendulkar as average and Ponting as arguably the best in ODIs. I find it hard to take that people take such a meaningless skillset for Tendulkar and his team - in the grand majority of games - as something to put up against arguably the best cricketer at a certain other skillset.
He wasn't. I wouldn't go so far as call him great because he probably never had to be but he was certainly very good. Definitely the most successful ever.
Ponting didn't need to, he played for Australia who had more than capable bowlers. For interest's sake, he could tweak it too
It isn't very accurate to judge them by average/SR but that is because they are used sparingly and are generally of a pretty lower quality than regular bowlers. People tend to see any wickets they bring up as bonuses when in reality whether they bowl or a full-timer bowls you are still using up 1 over to make something happen. And whilst Tendulkar had some performances where he made something happen, in a 459 match career it really didn't happen enough.
Daemon
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You think Tendulkar has had an average ODI career? Wow.
Also it's extremely convenient of you to say that Australia have never needed Ponting to bowl, then ignore the fact that there have always been better part timers then Sachin in the Indian team in the latter part of his career such that they didn't need him to bowl. Saying things like 'he took 1 wicket in 3 games' is meaningless.
Also it's extremely convenient of you to say that Australia have never needed Ponting to bowl, then ignore the fact that there have always been better part timers then Sachin in the Indian team in the latter part of his career such that they didn't need him to bowl. Saying things like 'he took 1 wicket in 3 games' is meaningless.
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Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
When did I say that? I said I think he is an average ODI fielder.
If Tendulkar is not as good as the part-timers India has had in the years he has bowled less, then that says even less about his bowling TBF. You're saying Tendulkar didn't bowl because of them whereas I am saying that Ponting hasn't bowled because of Australia's great bowlers and fine all-rounders. Are you really equating the two?
If Tendulkar is not as good as the part-timers India has had in the years he has bowled less, then that says even less about his bowling TBF. You're saying Tendulkar didn't bowl because of them whereas I am saying that Ponting hasn't bowled because of Australia's great bowlers and fine all-rounders. Are you really equating the two?
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zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
He didn't say that - he said his fielding was average. This thread is making my eyes bleed btw, as ever when threads degenerate into Ricky v Sachin.
Not sorry to see the back of Ponting as an adversary for my team. Great, great player.
LOL, really ? so, basically, he gets no credit for his part-time bowling. Anyone else, say not practicing their bowling, would go at ~5 per over and not closer to 6 per over ??? Really ? Anyone else would/could strike crucial blows when required ??
I'd also consider overs per innings , which is ~5
What balance ? Have two players like him who can bowl part-time spin and you wouldn't need an extra spinner just for the heck of it ....
Just take a look at Yuvraj Singh in the recently concluded WC , India could play the extra batsman and didn't have to play someone like a Jadeja at no7 because Yuvraj was for most part bowling his quota of overs .... His "average" no of overs per match is also ~2.93
Absolutely disagree, Tendulkar was well above average fielder , when not a 36+ year old ....So just because he wasn't as exceptional as Ponting, that skillset of his meaningless. LOL
He had the best ODI team ever.... He handled the team and its members well, that's about it. He wasn't tactically astute at all .....
oh, it has happened quite a few times. YOU just didn't see enough of them ......Several times when he's struck crucial blows ..... Several times brought down the run-rate when the main bowlers were hammered
Again, just because someone is not the best or close to it at something, doesn't mean it should be ignored ..
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Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
No, two crap part-timers wouldn't take the place of a proper full-time spinner. If Tendulkar was economical, I could see his use. But he wasn't. He was, overall, a pretty crappy bowler who had some innings of note.
Maybe in the Indian team. Overall? Average IMO. I am saying, the comparison seems inane. You are comparing a skillset that Tendulkar is not even that decent at to one where Ponting is arguably the greatest ever at.Absolutely disagree, Tendulkar was well above average fielder , when not a 36+ year old ....So just because he wasn't as exceptional as Ponting, that skillset of his meaningless. LOL
Actually, he was a pretty good captain tactically in ODIs. I feel people keep hitting him with criticisms of his captaincy which are more relevant to Tests. As a ODI captain he was very good.
Again, something that is good for a part-timer is not necessarily good overall.
I think I'll stop right here since it is annoying some people.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hehe I'm not sorry I brought it up, it was a genuine question.
FTR, I rate the work Ponting did in the field to be second to none, at least in my lifetime. Having a gun fielder can do wonders for the "little 1%ers" that win games. More than a few times one of his runouts has turned the course of the game.
In a random ODI in the middle of a series, I'd take Tendulkar over Ponting, but for the grand final of the World Cup I'd take Ponting any day of the week.
My question was more concerned with his status in relation to Viv than it was to Tendulkar anyway (as the age-old Tendy vs Punter debate will never be resolved).
FTR, I rate the work Ponting did in the field to be second to none, at least in my lifetime. Having a gun fielder can do wonders for the "little 1%ers" that win games. More than a few times one of his runouts has turned the course of the game.
In a random ODI in the middle of a series, I'd take Tendulkar over Ponting, but for the grand final of the World Cup I'd take Ponting any day of the week.
My question was more concerned with his status in relation to Viv than it was to Tendulkar anyway (as the age-old Tendy vs Punter debate will never be resolved).
Shri
Mr. Glass
Nobody is saying he was good enough to be a specialist bowler. He was decent in the role which was assigned to him which was to bowl a few overs now and then. It just adds to his CV and is measurable easily whereas the fielding stuff of Ponting you quote is from your memory and he might not be as good as you think he is if you go through data. Think thats what a lot of people in the thread are taking exception too. Could be wrong. But I never am.
Sparkley
Banned
I doubt Ricky saves 15 runs a game in comparison to the worst of fielders.15 runs per game more than Sachin?Fair dinkum?I find it hard to believe.While I cant honestly claim to of watched all of Sachin's career I'd wager he was above average as a fielder for most of his career.150+ wickets aint a joke; not everyone can give it a burl and take 150 wickets.Also reckon Sachin gets undersold when there is talk of pressure.A quick cricinfo search tells me that he is the most successful batsman in WC's, has performed adequately in 3 WC SF and 2 WC QFs and has 3 MoM awards to his name against Pak in WC's. That is as hard as it gets for the Indians in terms of pressure. Done well in a number of other finals too by the looks of his stats.No contest in ODIs for mine. Sachin has done
more than Ricky and for longer!
more than Ricky and for longer!