***Official*** Pakistan and England in UAE

[Cricketismylife]

So Cook & Bell have filled their boots at the right time, but Trott (possibly) hasn't?

Trott did fill his boots Down Under and v SL, but I consider Trott the best batsman in the England team, and the batsman who can handle decent bowling the best. So in my opinion, of the England batsman he will come out of this worldwide bowling resurgence looking the best. When Amir and Asif were causing problems to the England batting line up in England, Trott looked the best player.

Trott is England's best player of spin and was quite unlucky on this tour. He was ill in the second innings of second test and wasnt actually out in the first innings of the 3rd test. The only real weakness I see in Trott's game is possibly against the bouncing ball, but mentally and technically I think he is the only batsman in the England side who can be world class.

KP could have been world class, but his technique went off the boil and his 73 average last year against weak attacks just papered over the cracks. He looked a much better player in 2005-2006, and I noticed then that he played the cover drive and cut much more then, and now he seems to hardly play it, trying to hit almost everything to the leg side. Before he was a leg side dominated player who was good through the offside, how he seems purely leg sided.

Again I dont want to take away credit from the likes of Cook for his Ashes performance, as it was a fantastic performance and its not his problem Aus had a poor attack. Also nearly everyone was having the opportunity to play on flat tracks etc so its not just Cook. My point is I feel that with the new resurgence in bowling, players like Cook and Bell will be nothing more than solid decent players who average early to mid 40s.

 

[Prince EWS]

Sri Lankan batting isn't better than Pakistan's.

It really is. Like, by a huge way. I think Sangakkara, Jayawardene and Samaraweera by themselves are a better batting lineup than the entire Pakistan eleven. Ajmal and three Saj Mahmoods would probably be a better bowling attack than what they can produce at the moment though. In fact they'd probably select Saj Mahmood if they could.

 

[Furball]

I was trying to move the discussion away from England vs. SL/India.

Ajmal WAG

 

[marc71178]

I think the most frustrating thing from the batting was that James Anderson, coming in at number 10 with the score reading **** all/8, was able to show an aptitude for using his feet, getting forward or back and working the ball around and rotating the strike that the middle order seemed to just completely forget about.

Could be something to do with him being under so much less pressure to succeed a) because of the situation he came in and b) because he's a bowler.

 

[CWB304]

While their bowling is world class, I didnt consider any of the English batsman to be world class at any point in their career, except for Trott possibly and Pietersen at the start of his career, when he performed well in 2 Ashes series home and away.

The whole Cook and Bell hype last year never felt right to me. They deserved the hype for their performances that year, but I never agreed with implications that they were tier 1 batsman. For most of their career they averaged in the early 40s, suddenly in 1 year they got it close to 50 and they were being considered as up there with the best in the world. It's not Cook or Bell's fault that the Australian, Sri Lankan and Indian attacks that they faced last year were terrible, and full credit to them for cashing in, but unfortunately for England Bell's 330 average against SL doesn't exactly prove that he can average 50 against decent bowlers. This isnt just an issue with England, this is an issue for world cricket. With a lot of promising new bowlers entering test cricket in the last 6 months, the game has completely changed.

During the England India series, the bowling stocks around the world were at the lowest point that I can remember. Nasser Hussain voiced his concern about this, and I remember seeing a non performing Harbajhan Singh in the top 10 in the bowling rankings, highlighting this point. I remember thinking that the only 2 really threatening attacks were England's and possibly SA's (who were over reliant on Steyn), which meant that the England batsman wouldnt really get tested anywhere other than v SA, and could cash in in most other test series.

Since then we have seen SA gain Philander, NZ gain Bracewell, Aus attack completely transformed and having a choice of 7 quicks and now Pakistan have truly confirmed that they are a force at home, with Rehman the surprise package for me. Even SL managed to take 20 wickets in SA! This has made test cricket unmissable, and hopefully this new trend of testing batsman will continue, so we can find out who the real class batsmen are.

Excellent post.

 

[BeeGee]

Congratulations Pakistan!! Emphatic performance.

While their bowling is world class, I didnt consider any of the English batsman to be world class at any point in their career, except for Trott possibly and Pietersen at the start of his career, when he performed well in 2 Ashes series home and away.

The whole Cook and Bell hype last year never felt right to me. They deserved the hype for their performances that year, but I never agreed with implications that they were tier 1 batsman. For most of their career they averaged in the early 40s, suddenly in 1 year they got it close to 50 and they were being considered as up there with the best in the world. It's not Cook or Bell's fault that the Australian, Sri Lankan and Indian attacks that they faced last year were terrible, and full credit to them for cashing in, but unfortunately for England Bell's 330 average against SL doesn't exactly prove that he can average 50 against decent bowlers. This isnt just an issue with England, this is an issue for world cricket. With a lot of promising new bowlers entering test cricket in the last 6 months, the game has completely changed.

During the England India series, the bowling stocks around the world were at the lowest point that I can remember. Nasser Hussain voiced his concern about this, and I remember seeing a non performing Harbajhan Singh in the top 10 in the bowling rankings, highlighting this point. I remember thinking that the only 2 really threatening attacks were England's and possibly SA's (who were over reliant on Steyn), which meant that the England batsman wouldnt really get tested anywhere other than v SA, and could cash in in most other test series.

Since then we have seen SA gain Philander, NZ gain Bracewell, Aus attack completely transformed and having a choice of 7 quicks and now Pakistan have truly confirmed that they are a force at home, with Rehman the surprise package for me. Even SL managed to take 20 wickets in SA! This has made test cricket unmissable, and hopefully this new trend of testing batsman will continue, so we can find out who the real class batsmen are.

Outstanding post. Agree with everything you've said.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

According to reports, Shoaib Malik is being preferred over Asad Shafiq. Malik is not playing in the match of Punjab while Sohail Tanvir is also not playing and is given the green signal.
Meanwhile, Farhat is likely to play in place of Taufeeq.


At the same time, youngsters like Hammad Azam, Afaq Raheem, Nasir Jamshed and Ahmed Shahzad are pilings runs in the domestic tournaments.
Fawad Alam is out of the equation.

Malik over Shafiq

Tanveer

 

[marc71178]

well, I don't see it as a great bowling side. I just don't think Pakistan are that good a batting side even in these conditions.. But perceptions and all that..

You what?

Yet again ignore all the pre-series talk about how England would struggle to take 20 wickets in such conditions and how the seamers would struggle - the bowling was fantastic and I'd probably say better than the Pakistani's - the problem was the batting was so so much worse than the Pakistani's.

 

[marc71178]

Sri Lankan batting isn't better than Pakistan's.

On paper I'd say it is no contest that the SL batting is better, if Jayawardene returns to form then they're far far better.

 

[smash84]

This thread obviously needs more pictures of Pakistan celebrating.

Stop trolling ****.

The double standards of some of the England fans on this forum is astonishing. And I say this as an England supporter. When Indian fans, BCCI officials, players like Ashwin, Gambhir, Kohli and Ishant, ex-players like Shastri - basically anyone even remotely connected to Indian cricket - make the sort of complacent comments that we've all heard since the recent England and Australia tours, to the effect that:

"It sucks, but we'll beat them at home and then everything will be alright",

they are widely mocked. Images of Saddam's propaganda minister are posted, threads are started and continue for pages and pages long after the comments have officially been denied, the names of crooks like Lalit Modi and the IPL are bandied about and used to muddy the waters and confuse what is a Test selection issue with something else altogether.

Yet even as they mock those Indians (sound like Tony Greig there), England's fans have been just as much in denial. There have been batting collapses in every match of this tour from the warm-up games till the third Test. Pietersen and Bell have not made a single contribution of note, even against part time bowlers. Yet rather than face up to the fact that drastic changes needed to be made to the middle order if England were to have any chance of succeeding, all we get is "we could easily have won 2-1" and other inanities.

No, mug, England could NOT have won 2-1, or in fact achieved any score other than 3-0 which fairly reflected the respective performances of the two sides. Why? Because England had incompetents batting in the crucial positions of 4, 5, and 6. Morgan is clearly not up to it, but he's the new boy so let's leave him out of it for now. The reality is that Pietersen and Bell are nowhere near as accomplished as they are made out to be on here, and this tour is the final proof, if any more were necessary. Yet despite the fact that it was pretty obvious as early as the end of the first Test that these clowns could not cope, management declined to change things around, and so England sleepwalked to a dismal and humiliating defeat that could have been avoided - given the quality of the bowling by Broad, Panesar, Anderson and Swann - if they had been brave enough to draft in batting reinforcements.

When you continue to rely on batsmen in the key positions of 4 and 5 who have proved quite conclusively that they are completely and utterly incapable of handling skilled spin bowling in anything other than their home conditions in an away tour when confronted with precisely that kind of bowling, then you have only yourself to blame for the whitewash.

HB is right, England never looked like chasing down 140. Despite this so-called England fans on here are still reacting as if merely suggesting that Pietersen's and Bell's places ought to be reviewed is an indicator of mental illness. That juxtaposition says a lot about England fans. I myself have been scathing about the Indian fans in the past, but I am now starting to reassess. The "If Zak had been fully fit" crowd are at least clinging on to hope - if only a faint and diminishing one. Misguided as they are, they are worthy of a certain respect if only because of that. The "how dare you suggest Bell/KP should be dropped, moron?" crowd on the other hand, are much worse. They are not living on hope, but stomping on it. The hope that England might some day fall out of love with posturing mediocrity and unjustified hype, and fall in love with sustained excellence.

Scathing.

Respect for you sir.

Have to give you credit for predicting after the first test that KP and Bell would average sub 20 for the series.

 

[smash84]

and SL batting > Pak batting

 

[CWB304]

Trott did fill his boots Down Under and v SL, but I consider Trott the best batsman in the England team, and the batsman who can handle decent bowling the best. So in my opinion, of the England batsman he will come out of this worldwide bowling resurgence looking the best. When Amir and Asif were causing problems to the England batting line up in England, Trott looked the best player.

Trott is England's best player of spin and was quite unlucky on this tour. He was ill in the second innings of second test and wasnt actually out in the first innings of the 3rd test. The only real weakness I see in Trott's game is possibly against the bouncing ball, but mentally and technically I think he is the only batsman in the England side who can be world class.

KP could have been world class, but his technique went off the boil and his 73 average last year against weak attacks just papered over the cracks. He looked a much better player in 2005-2006, and I noticed then that he played the cover drive and cut much more then, and now he seems to hardly play it, trying to hit almost everything to the leg side. Before he was a leg side dominated player who was good through the offside, how he seems purely leg sided.

Again I dont want to take away credit from the likes of Cook for his Ashes performance, as it was a fantastic performance and its not his problem Aus had a poor attack. Also nearly everyone was having the opportunity to play on flat tracks etc so its not just Cook. My point is I feel that with the new resurgence in bowling, players like Cook and Bell will be nothing more than solid decent players who average early to mid 40s.

Superb analysis once again: Trott is clearly the best and most reliable England bat.

I too have noticed with dismay how KP has grown to increasingly favour the on side over the years. It has made him a one dimensional player and a much less dangerous one with reduced scoring options. I remember remarking on it even when watching one of his big innings (I think his double) against India last year.

He was facing Praveen Kumar and had already made something like sixty in quick time. Yet for some reason he started making difficulties for himself by making premeditated movements to the off side before the ball was released in order to hit to leg. He nearly got out in this way, and several of the balls he did this to could have been laced through the covers. I remember asking: "why is he batting like that; it just looks so weird". Poor KP. Unfulfilled promise. He will never be a true great and probably knows it himself now. No wonder he's all for the IPL.

 

[Nomanculture]

On paper I'd say it is no contest that the SL batting is better, if Jayawardene returns to form then they're far far better.

That's a very big if you know. I was hoping that he'd get dropped after the SA tour. But what does one know about SL cricket...

 

[wpdavid]

Who are these "better batting lineups"?

Most sides who have played against Pakistan in UAE.

Or is my memory playing up again?

 

[smash84]

Most sides who have played against Pakistan in UAE.

Or is my memory playing up again?

dude btw your Gambhiring in this series wasn't too far off the mark in retrospect

 

[GIMH]

well, I don't see it as a great bowling side. I just don't think Pakistan are that good a batting side even in these conditions.. But perceptions and all that..


I just don't think it was such a close series at all. I mean, that 140 target apart, I don't think England even looked like they were competing Even when Pak were 99 all out, I didn't expect England to get a bigger lead than 70 or 80.. That is telling something, I would think.

See, I get that. But my point is that the bowling is not that good either. You can probably put it down to what I think of Pakistan's batting (I don't think it is there yet in terms of being world class, Misbah and Younis apart), but I just don't think the bowlers did THAT great a job either.


And while England may not face spinners this good (and that is still very much an arguable point), they are certainly going to face batsmen who will do much better. And the sad thing is, it doesn't even seem to cross some of the posters' minds here. Face it, the next time they face Pakistan, even Pakistan will be batting a lot better than they did this time.

It was top class bowling and if you'd watched the series you'd know that. And they've skittled every line up they've come up against in the past few years so I dot know what more you could ask.

 

[amanuensis]

Trott did fill his boots Down Under and v SL, but I consider Trott the best batsman in the England team, and the batsman who can handle decent bowling the best. So in my opinion, of the England batsman he will come out of this worldwide bowling resurgence looking the best. When Amir and Asif were causing problems to the England batting line up in England, Trott looked the best player.

Trott is England's best player of spin and was quite unlucky on this tour. He was ill in the second innings of second test and wasnt actually out in the first innings of the 3rd test. The only real weakness I see in Trott's game is possibly against the bouncing ball, but mentally and technically I think he is the only batsman in the England side who can be world class.

KP could have been world class, but his technique went off the boil and his 73 average last year against weak attacks just papered over the cracks. He looked a much better player in 2005-2006, and I noticed then that he played the cover drive and cut much more then, and now he seems to hardly play it, trying to hit almost everything to the leg side. Before he was a leg side dominated player who was good through the offside, how he seems purely leg sided.

Again I dont want to take away credit from the likes of Cook for his Ashes performance, as it was a fantastic performance and its not his problem Aus had a poor attack. Also nearly everyone was having the opportunity to play on flat tracks etc so its not just Cook. My point is I feel that with the new resurgence in bowling, players like Cook and Bell will be nothing more than solid decent players who average early to mid 40s.

Trott was unlucky? The same Trott who was basically gifted 52 runs by Misbah? For the record, I don't think any of them are or ever will be world class - they all have pretty blatant weaknesses.

 

[Uppercut]

I too have noticed with dismay how KP has grown to increasingly favour the on side over the years. It has made him a one dimensional player and a much less dangerous one with reduced scoring options. I remember remarking on it even when watching one of his big innings (I think his double) against India last year.

He was facing Praveen Kumar and had already made something like sixty in quick time. Yet for some reason he started making difficulties for himself by making premeditated movements to the off side before the ball was released in order to hit to leg. He nearly got out in this way, and several of the balls he did this to could have been laced through the covers. I remember asking: "why is he batting like that; it just looks so weird".

It's one of the most well thought-out techniques in cricket. By getting forward and across he largely takes lbw out of the equation and it makes his decisions on what to play and what to leave very easy. By not driving through the off-side (always a good idea in England) he takes the slips out of the game too, and he's strong enough on his pads that he's very unlikely to just miss a straight one.

That's why he scored about a million runs in that series, despite not appearing to be in the best touch. If you're not nicking him out behind the wicket on the off-side and you're not threatening the stumps, you're probably not going to get him out. Dhoni was often forced to resort to bowling to a leg slip or bowling short or some similarly speculative plan. It's probably the best example I've seen of a batsman using a clever technique to score runs despite mediocre form.

 

[slowfinger]

FAWAD ALAM IS THE NEXT MATCH PLZZZZZZZZZ
PAKISTAN Pakistan Pakistan!!!

Should there be a 'Parmy Army'? (Pakistan army army)

But that aside that this was a dominant test. Apart from the 99 all out, Pakistan have to be given credit due to the fact that we had control over the match, this time!

 

[Uppercut]

See, I get that. But my point is that the bowling is not that good either. You can probably put it down to what I think of Pakistan's batting (I don't think it is there yet in terms of being world class, Misbah and Younis apart), but I just don't think the bowlers did THAT great a job either.

dude, you just have no idea on what you are talking about. Please, do as a favor and stop.

z