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So the ICC evidence is finally in - and apparently even Glen McGrath chucks...

Migara

International Coach
You don't lose a whole career though...you go and get tested and then back you come. You're not protecting the innocent, they're the guys playing against the guy who is chucking it. I understand you're coming it from Murali's angle (no pun intended)...but Murali isn't the whole throwing issue, even though he was made out to be.

Even suggesting umpires were biased is in itself biased - this is the Murali defence. He may have been wrong in then end given Murali was tested. But he wasn't wrong to call him if he thought he was throwing.
Under the old rule, it was bye bye for a career once called. Because of the stigma, that bowler might get called again. There was no way for a bowler to come back after being called and prove that he's clean other than bowling in front of two grumpy old men. Murali is not the issue here. Issue is people resistance in accepting research done with an acceptable methodology. Suggesting umpires are not biased as biased as saying they are biased. Having seen some umpires and match referees like Broad and Deness "dishonest observer" is not a myth, but a reality.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Bull****. The line has been placed where chuckers end up on the wrong side of it. The "research" conducted through the CT04 which was of such high quality to have been never released pinned up to 12 degrees as the mark for where bowlers were getting to. So how did we get to 15.

And thats leaving aside the research which is published, which puts forward the view that simple elbow flexion is not the way to measure if someone is indeed throwing or not.
Do you ever consider the possibility that any of those fast bowlers who were flexing their elbows might just flex it more with their "special" balls or "effort" balls? How do you stop them if they just chuck one out of every 100 deliveries of theirs.. You probably wont even notice their action at that point, if the game was tight or something.. Face it, everyone has the chance to chuck the odd ball beyond the limits allowed right now and it is just plain silly to think only the Ajmals and the Muralis would be doing it..
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Completely AWTA. Like HawkEye. :p
well.. if you want to go there.. ;)


I have my reservations about the predictive part of it but I do like the usage of hawkeye to see where it pitched, the impact vis-a-vis the line of the stumps etc. And also the amount of deviation after pitching (spin/swing/seam).. :)
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
well.. if you want to go there.. ;)


I have my reservations about the predictive part of it but I do like the usage of hawkeye to see where it pitched, the impact vis-a-vis the line of the stumps etc. And also the amount of deviation after pitching (spin/swing/seam).. :)
I don't want to be a troll with a bone and derail the thread, but while HawkEye's predictive path isn't perfect, it's sure as hell a lot more accurate than, as Migara would put it, "a middle aged guy with a biased mind judging by naked eye". It's a very similar situation - we had a retched system and replaced (or err tried to replace) it with an admittedly imperfect system with a few issues but one that was far more fair and accurate than the one we had before.

I reckon Ajmal's new delivery looks like a chuck. If it's reported, tested and found not to be a chuck I won't be totally convinced because of the limitations of the system, but I'll acknowledge that the testing that went on is far, far more accurate than what my eyes can see, and not bring it up anymore. The fact that it looks like a chuck to me will be of far less consequence than what the testing can reveal, because even though neither system is perfect, biomechanical testing >>> me watching on TV. And the exact same thing applies to when I think something looks like an lbw.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I don't want to be a troll with a bone and derail the thread, but while HawkEye's predictive path isn't perfect, it's sure as hell a lot more accurate than, as Migara would put it, "a middle aged guy with a biased mind judging by naked eye". It's a very similar situation - we had a retched system and replaced (or err tried to replace) it with an admittedly imperfect system with a few issues but one that was far more fair and accurate than the one we had before.

I reckon Ajmal's new delivery looks like a chuck. If it's reported, tested and found not to be a chuck I won't be totally convinced because of the limitations of the system, but I'll acknowledge that the testing that went on is far, far more accurate than what my eyes can see, and not bring it up anymore. The fact that it looks like a chuck to me will be of far less consequence than what the testing can reveal, because even though neither system is perfect, biomechanical testing >>> me watching on TV. And the exact same thing applies to when I think something looks like an lbw.
I would agree with you, but the cases are not similar at all. Because with LBW, the hawkeye is predicting something that may have happened, but with the chucking thing, the technology is simply measuring in numbers, what has actually happened. As I have said before, I trust technology to accurately depict what has happened but when it comes to predicting the path, the technology is just as good/bad as the human judgement.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
I would agree with you, but the cases are not similar at all. Because with LBW, the hawkeye is predicting something that may have happened, but with the chucking thing, the technology is simply measuring in numbers, what has actually happened. As I have said before, I trust technology to accurately depict what has happened but when it comes to predicting the path, the technology is just as good/bad as the human judgement.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
we had a retched system and replaced (or err tried to replace) it with an admittedly imperfect system with a few issues but one that was far more fair and accurate than the one we had before.
Whatever problems the old system had, it at least had the merit of being workable. The current one isn't. &, moreover, it's not fair on the side who have to face a chucker either. England's defeat in 05/06 against a proven thrower is still in Wisden.

It seems we're more concerned about the feelings of a bloke who chucks than the integrity of the sport.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
Whatever problems the old system had, it at least had the merit of being workable. The current one isn't. &, moreover, it's not fair on the side who have to face a chucker either. England's defeat in 05/06 against a proven thrower is still in Wisden.

It seems we're more concerned about the feelings of a bloke who chucks than the integrity of the sport.
That can go both ways though. Under the old system, an umpire could call someone for chucking (merely under his opinion of what is a chuck) and take them out of the match. Let’s say the said bowler was subsequently tested and cleared. The side that were called for chucking would lose a potentially potent bowler and perhaps end up losing because of that. How is the integrity of the sport better with that approach?
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
That can go both ways though. Under the old system, an umpire could call someone for chucking (merely under his opinion of what is a chuck) and take them out of the match. Let’s say the said bowler was subsequently tested and cleared. The side that were called for chucking would lose a potentially potent bowler and perhaps end up losing because of that. How is the integrity of the sport better with that approach?
Because no wickets have fallen to chucking. All chucks look like chucks. Apparently some legitimate deliveries do too, but I'd be far happier if deliveries that look like they're being thrown are removed from the game peremptorily.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
That can go both ways though. Under the old system, an umpire could call someone for chucking (merely under his opinion of what is a chuck) and take them out of the match. Let’s say the said bowler was subsequently tested and cleared. The side that were called for chucking would lose a potentially potent bowler and perhaps end up losing because of that. How is the integrity of the sport better with that approach?
yeah, the old system was just bull ****. And empowered blokes with agendas like Ross Emerson.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
Because no wickets have fallen to chucking. All chucks look like chucks. Apparently some legitimate deliveries do too, but I'd be far happier if deliveries that look like they're being thrown are removed from the game peremptorily.
Yes, but a potentially legitimate bowler has been prevented from taking wickets (and thereby hurting his side’s chances to win) just because something doesn’t “look” right. We know perfectly well from Murali and other’s cases that looks can be deceiving. I don’t think that’s a fair way to go about it. I guess it comes down to the old “innocent until proven guilty” adage with me. I’m happy for someone to come up with a live-game monitoring system that identifies chucking. Until they do, the current method is the best we have. I’m not happy with punishing players just on the basis of someone’s opinion of what is or isn’t a chuck.
 

CWB304

U19 Cricketer
Whatever problems the old system had, it at least had the merit of being workable. The current one isn't. &, moreover, it's not fair on the side who have to face a chucker either. England's defeat in 05/06 against a proven thrower is still in Wisden.

It seems we're more concerned about the feelings of a bloke who chucks than the integrity of the sport.
Someone above said that Ajmal's "teesra" or "new delivery", as opposed to what he was doing before, is a chuck. It made me laugh because the "new delivery" talk is actually a smokescreen which creates a convenient fallback position that enables the bowler to consolidate what he has already been able to get away with, given the pusillanimous refusal of the authorities to do their job.

Holding pointed out some time ago that Ajmal's "doosra" was a chuck and that he was wearing long sleeves to make it more difficult to see the degree of flex in his elbow as he was chucking it; now he unveils the "teesra", in part so that the gullible are suckered into fighting on the ground of this new delivery. The on dit amongst ordinary fans - now transmogrified into "dissidents" - who can scarcely believe the disconnect between the blatant chucking they're witnessing and the ICC's inaction will be:

"The 'teesra' is a chuck but the 'doosra' was compliant", instead of "Ajmal's a chucker; he should stop throwing the ball or be banned from the game".

The doosra is not compliant, and some doubt whether it is possible to bowl that delivery AT ALL with a compliant action! When Pakistan played Sri Lanka some months ago I could scarcely believe my eyes as Ajmal threw ball after ball at the SL batsmen like a baseball pitcher, and this was long before the so-called "teesra" was unveiled!

The last thing the game needs is a cross-cultural political kerfuffle which results in the fudge of the "teesra" being banned whilst Ajmal continues to be allowed to chuck the ball as and when he likes under the header of "doosra". Just because the ICC aren't prepared to do their job it doesn't stop ordinary cricket fans from calling a blatant chuck a blatant chuck. But so long as Ajmal's deliveries are ruled legal then I will continue to accept them as such without demur whilst still believing in my heart of hearts that he is chucking the ball.

Flower should have said no comment and the players should have said nothing pro or anti Ajmal's action. It's not their decision. It's the ICC's, and if they decide to do nothing then so be it: worse things have happened in the world. The England players simply have to put it out of their minds, play him positively and ensure that he doesn't get into their heads in the same way as Warne once did.
 

Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Sorry to dig these up, was away for a couple of days

You don't think it's weird we could use video to apparently determine the degree of flex years ago, but we haven't been able to use it since?
Not that bit. It's the conspiracy theory bit that I had a problem with.

The problem I have with it is that you can be 'cleared' and then, if you so desire, go out the next day and chuck one. I'm not suggesting that many bowlers do this by the way, but that's the way it stands at the moment. When you clear someone in a lab and then send them out to play without anyone being able to make a judgement on a ball-by-ball basis that's what you set yourself up for.

The idea that you can be cleared for life is simply ridiculous in my opinion. It should be an ongoing process of monitoring for everyone who plays the game. Regardless of whether you've been caught before or not.
Which is why I also suggested they should be tested every year or so. Besides, if the bowler can reproduce (without chucking) exactly what he does in a match, why would he suddenly start chucking in the game? He would know very well that once he starts to chuck and gets tested a second time, he's ****ed.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Which is why I also suggested they should be tested every year or so. Besides, if the bowler can reproduce (without chucking) exactly what he does in a match, why would he suddenly start chucking in the game? He would know very well that once he starts to chuck and gets tested a second time, he's ****ed.
Every year is a bit excessive, but I agree that it needs to be done on a regular basis for the system to properly work.
 

Migara

International Coach
Whatever problems the old system had, it at least had the merit of being workable. The current one isn't. &, moreover, it's not fair on the side who have to face a chucker either. England's defeat in 05/06 against a proven thrower is still in Wisden.

It seems we're more concerned about the feelings of a bloke who chucks than the integrity of the sport.
Old system was not workable at all because it did not give any chance for a bowler to come back. It seems some are more concerned about the feelings of a their own than the truth.
 

Migara

International Coach
Because no wickets have fallen to chucking. All chucks look like chucks. Apparently some legitimate deliveries do too, but I'd be far happier if deliveries that look like they're being thrown are removed from the game peremptorily.
This looks like Malaria, so we'll treat the damn thing because it looks like Malaria. If it turns out to be any other thing with investigations it doesn't matter because it looks like Malaria and hence should be Malaria.
 

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