Why is Lillee rated above Imran?

[Furball]

Ankit - I don't think you've actually disagreed with my point at all. Compare Tendulkar's legacy or Wasim's with Gavaskar's and Imran's - the former pair get the respect they deserve and the respect that was denied to the latter two - in part it's because the game has become more globalised due to TV coverage, which in turn has made the subcontinent more "important" for lack of a better word. If I wanted to, I could stay up until 4am and watch every ball from Mumbai in the 3rd Test - in Imran's day the only way to find out about his exploits would probably have been in Wisden, because it certainly wouldn't have been on TV and I doubt my local newspapers would have carried the result.

There might still be a post-colonial complex in India, but at the same time the patriotic pride that you've talked about in your post makes its way into the wider cricketing media in a way that it wouldn't have 30 years ago, which, along with my first paragraph is what I'm getting at when talking about India's growing influence on the game.

 

[Furball]

There's zilch passion among the masses. There might be a very small minority in metros that has been exposed to these sports that might take some interest.

That small minority in the metros is still massive by Western European standards though.

 

[dhillon28]

I disagree with quite a bit and hear me out here. I might know a thing or two about sub-continent fans (or more specifically Indian fans) And I intend to talk about the common fan and not the minority that has access to internet and statguru.

While the money and power might have shifted to India, the Indian fans still feel a complex wrt other cricketing nations, particularly Aus and SA currently and WI earlier (England don't yet get the respect they deserve because of the absence of stars). And this whole thing of living in a complex has its roots in the colonial rule IMO. So what the Indian public seeks is instant gratification from any sporting achievements. Winning the world cup, Tendulkar being hailed the greatest batsman, Dhoni being called the best leader etc are all gratifying things from a patriotic pride POV. And this extends to other fields too - Amartya Sen winning Nobel, Kalpana Chawla becoming first woman in space, Vickram Pandit becoming CEO of world's largest global bank etc are reassurances that Indians can achieve anything.

But does that extend to performances in India being rated more? No. There is a strong sense of complex about not being good enough abroad. No one remembers Ambrose's poor record in or against India, Warne's poor record against India doesn't come in way of them rating him at par or above Murali. On the other hand, half of them don't rate Sehwag because he has failed in seaming conditions and absolutely no one thinks Kumble is even a comparison with other great bowlers because he sucked outside sub-continent despite having a stellar record in India.

And also the OP doesn't typify an Indian fan. For a typical Indian fan in any Pakistani vs non-Pakistani, latter is the winner because Pakistanis are over-rated and cheaters (Wasim Akram is an exception, he receives unconditional reverence).

Yes your right. The Indian National team supporters do have a complex, although it has died down drastically in the past 4 odd years due to the following factors (WT20 Champions in 2007, World Test No.1 for 1.5 years, WC 2011 Champions, IPL's success and the fact that the world's cricketing elite a crazy to play in it, India being the financial powerhouse in world cricket, Sachin's 200* and soon to be 100 centuries).

But on closer inspection, which national team identity isn't riddled with a complex. After all isn't that what nationalism is about? Seeking reinforcement for the assertion, that I am better than you. Think about it, Aussies have a complex to the English as they were sent by them to Oz as criminals. Ppl like Lillee have openly admitted that the reason why Ashes glory was so central was to Australians was that it gave the feeling to the Aussies that they were sticking it to their criminal masters. Pakistani fans have a complex against India as they feel they have to get one up on their bullying bigger brother who is more powerful and financially successful than them. Indian fans have a complex against England as they feel they have to stick it to their colonial masters, they have a complex against Pakistan as they were ruled by Muslims for centuries. English fans have a complex that they used to be the colonial masters whose empire ruled throughout the world. Now they cannot let go of past glories and are constantly trying to reassert their dominance and deny the fact that they are a just a regular country. South Africa- let's not even go there! Generally the least nationalistic team and fans ive found are NZ as they are quite comforta ble and chilled out. They glady accept the fact that Daniel Vettori will go down in history as one of their all time greats and they just got on with it.

 

[Burgey]

It is only as much a good argument as saying that batting on fast and bouncy tracks is the real deal and batting on slow and flat tracks is not worth as many points.

It isn't.

 

[Top_Cat]

4. If we can take anything from your point, it's that Lillee's record in Asia has sample size problems. It's not really much proof of anything.

Been here for a while and you still don't 'get' CW, do you do? Clearly he was avoiding the sub-continent to protect his record.

Myself, from memory, more guys who played against them both rated Lillee higher so I'll go with that although I don't think anyone said 'Lillee by heaps'. I prefer Lillee mainly because he seemed to be all-out attack whereas Imran was was less so but that's a personal thing.

 

[keeper]

Hope it's not sarcastic. I had half a mind to delete all that without posting.



There's zilch passion among the masses. There might be a very small minority in metros that has been exposed to these sports that might take some interest.

God, no. Genuinely interested in what you had to say. (insert definitely not sarcastic smiley here )

And yes, I can see I am basing something on people who access the internet. So Premiership football doesn't have the broad appeal that it does in, say, the Far East? Glad to hear it if true tbh.

 

[kyear2]

Nice to hear arguments for both, as both are ATG bowlers, but both have notable holes in their resume's.
For me there are only two complete fast bowlers with no holes in their resume's and have well rounded careers and they would be Malcolm Marshall and Glenn Mcgrath. Not sure I wouldn't put Trueman up there as well.
But all in all both Lillee and Imran are top 10 bowlers and contenders for any all time 11.

 

[IamSpartacus]

Aussies have a complex to the English as they were sent by them to Oz as criminals.

English fans have a complex that they used to be the colonial masters whose empire ruled throughout the world.

Booo, absolute rubbish. There isn't any such widespread cultural sentiment from either
Aussies or the English. Few Brits lament the loss of the colonies nor is there any real
acrimony from us Crims towards the mother country for transporting us.

 

[robelinda]

Yep, legions of Aussies raising their fists daily into the air saying "CURSE ENGLAND, OUR COLONIAL MASTERS".

 

[a spambot]

it's the moustache

 

[smash84]

It isn't.

Why?

 

[Burgey]

Why?

Because whilst there are equal but different skills involved in negotiating both, playing on fast and bouncy wickets involves dealing with the additional factor of risk of physical harm (more so earlier than now, but it's still a factor to some extent).

 

[Cevno]

Hope it's not sarcastic. I had half a mind to delete all that without posting.



There's zilch passion among the masses. There might be a very small minority in metros that has been exposed to these sports that might take some interest.

Define Masses? In the truest sense of the term you may be right, but those who are passionate are in very large number too, with the population of the country.

There is a lot of passion for all kinds of sport in India among large numbers. It may not come with the hooliganism /drinking/sporting culture in some european countries but there is a lot of passion for sports especially for the Indian team in those sports. Right from the Kabaddi world cup in Punjab, to Hockey world cup in Delhi, to Football in Kolkata, to the celebrations for the Cricket World cup and the reception the Indian team recieved in Mumbai for the t20 world cup. Hell even the U19 team received a great welcome in Bangalore.

 

[smash84]

Because whilst there are equal but different skills involved in negotiating both, playing on fast and bouncy wickets involves dealing with the additional factor of risk of physical harm (more so earlier than now, but it's still a factor to some extent).

Emmm......as you say above that if they are equal then shouldn't they be getting equal points?

 

[Cevno]

I think a lot of that has to do with how his contemporaries viewed him, particularly in the media, and it reflects where the centre of the cricketing universe would have been at the time of Imran's career. I doubt that there were many writers in England and Australia who would have watched Imran's home exploits or cared a great deal about them because even as recently as the 1980s events in the subcontinent wouldn't have carried great significance. The cricketing media would largely have been centred around England and Australia; from a cursory glance at his statistics Imran performed well but not superlatively when Pakistan visited either country, which doesn't help his legacy when you look at Lillee's Ashes exploits (which are always going to play a huge role in a player's legacy, for another example see Warne vs Muralitharan), Hadlee's success in both countries, and the superstar status of the West Indian team.

Imran's exploits mostly came at home, and unfortunately that earns him a lot less credit in terms of his legacy than his contemporaries who performed better than Imran where they'd be noticed most.

edit: we're seeing a reversal of this now as the centre of the cricketing universe, in terms of fanbase, money and the media is moving towards the subcontinent and in particular India, which is why you get people on here knocking a player's record because "they've not done it in the subcontinent." Because to them, the subcontinent is the centre of their cricketing universe, in the same way that for most of history England and Australia have tended to be the centre of the cricketing universe, which is reflected subconsciously in the legacy certain past players have in relation to their contemporaries. I think Gavaskar suffers from the same unintentional bias that Imran suffered from, although to a lesser degree because Gavaskar does have more noteworthy performances.

Actually in the older days due to the lack of coverage and exposure and all the media being concentrated in England and Australia and them controlling the game, there was a focus there and most things were seen from that perspective.

Nowadays, with so much exposure and some teams getting stronger obviously how you do there also counts, and the cricketing media has to weigh every performance together. So basically Asian players like Sehwag get faulted maybe for their records in South Africa and the likes of Ponting in India.
It's a lot more balanced now, and don't think there is any particular centre now. Everything counts more and with exposure there is no place to hide so to speak.

 

[Burgey]

Emmm......as you say above that if they are equal then shouldn't they be getting equal points?

No I didn't say they are equal. I said there are different skills involved in batting on both which are equal but the additional factor on fast and bouncy wickets is the fear of physical harm.

 

[IamSpartacus]

I prefer a simple three tier bowler rating system, each level named for a bowler I randomly think of at the time to fit these categories whenever such player v player discussions arise.

Malcolm Marshall Tier - reservered for the awesomely awesome
Sean Pollock Tier - not quite ATG
Merv Hughes Tier - a decent test bowler

with far less player v player direness discussions i've not bothered to add a Mitchell Johnson tier

Thus Imran & Lillee both go into the top category however my rating system also allows for a ladies vote so Imran wins hands down.

Thread /

 

[Top_Cat]

Utterly insane, can't quite believe what I'm reading. You could not be more wrong.

For God's sake man, '/' goes before the thing you're ending, not after.

 

[IamSpartacus]

Looks better my way tbh

the "/" at the end commands respect ... except from pedantic ****s

 

[bagapath]

the fact that lillee happens to be one of the handful of modern bowlers with a match average of 5 wickets or more must be working in his favor somewhere. also, matches in england and australia would get better coverage in his playing days. better writers on cricket hailed from those countries too. both these factors combing with the genuine awesomeness of lillee created the aura around him in the cricketing world during his playing career.

as i had said before the critics look more favorably at performances in eng, aus and west indies than in pak, sl or nz. so lillee did well in england and australia. the matches were widely covered. fantastic articles were written on him. critics called him the best ever. rest of the pacers, like hadlee and imran and marshall, took inspiration from him. he became a legend.

but, later, when that same trio got bucket loads of wickets in nz, pak and india and led their teams to famous wins. not everyone paid them the same kind of attention. in fact, they went beyond lillee in achieving more allround success in all sorts of conditions. but lillee remained the epitome of fast bowling for many years even after he retired. so to answer the question, lillee is rated above imran because he played in an era when performances in england and australia got more attention. it is a bit like haq playing in this tendulkar era when india is hogging the limelight and hence sachin is called god and inzy remains a good man at best. future generations might wonder why this happened so just like we are asking why lillee was bigger than imran.