Should the ICC and Test nations bother with associate teams

[Flem274*]

Would be gun if Ireland or someone did a FC tour of NZ and played the six domestic sides, with a game against a New Zealand XI to finish.

 

[andruid]

True, would be more gun if New Zealand started by providing these tours to Papua New Guinea who are the strongest nearby associates, or all test teams in general made a commitment to involving nearby associates mature their game. Kinda like the way South Africa are with Namibia or England with Ireland, Holland and Scotland.

 

[Howe_zat]

If I may take my eyepatch off for a moment - "the way England are with Ireland" is not really a tip top example, is it?

 

[Furball]

If I may take my eyepatch off for a moment - "the way England are with Ireland" is not really a tip top example, is it?

Yeah, shame on English counties for developing talented young Irish players. Shame on the ECB for allowing Ireland to compete in their domestic List A competition. Shame on England for picking players like Boyd Rankin for their development squad. Shame on England for regularly sending an ODI side to Ireland and Scotland to play matches. They're a disgrace.

 

[Howe_zat]

Furball, there's really no need to pre-emptively jump down my throat like that on things I haven't even said. I've always defended the England case against the silly notion of "poaching players" or any of the rest of it that gets thrown around.

My point there, which I think is rather fair, is that the England team's relationship with Irish cricket - while not really the "fault" of anyone in particular, I never blamed the ECB - is not the ideal situation for developing associate cricket.

 

[jan]

How about affiliate nations?

 

[Furball]

Furball, there's really no need to pre-emptively jump down my throat like that on things I haven't even said. I've always defended the England case against the silly notion of "poaching players" or any of the rest of it that gets thrown around.

My point there, which I think is rather fair, is that the England team's relationship with Irish cricket - while not really the "fault" of anyone in particular, I never blamed the ECB - is not the ideal situation for developing associate cricket.

Sorry, my post wasn't meant to be as harsh as it reads.

I don't know how much more "ideal" the relationship could be. Ireland, Scotland and the Netherlands all compete in the CB40 (and can even sign an overseas player for the tournament if they can afford it, as Scotland did with Rahul Dravid a few years back), Ireland and Scotland get alternating home ODIs with England (and while I'd love for a proper 3-game series or a triangular tournament, unfortunately I don't think England can afford the space in the calendar unless you schedule it at a dire time of year like April) and the top Scottish and Irish players have an excellent First Class setup right on their doorstep in which players can develop. The fact England can poach the top talent from these nations is unfortunate, but I think Scotland, Ireland and the Dutch all benefit enormously from their relationship with England.

 

[Bonnie Prince C]

Sorry, my post wasn't meant to be as harsh as it reads.

I don't know how much more "ideal" the relationship could be. Ireland, Scotland and the Netherlands all compete in the CB40 (and can even sign an overseas player for the tournament if they can afford it, as Scotland did with Rahul Dravid a few years back), Ireland and Scotland get alternating home ODIs with England (and while I'd love for a proper 3-game series or a triangular tournament, unfortunately I don't think England can afford the space in the calendar unless you schedule it at a dire time of year like April) and the top Scottish and Irish players have an excellent First Class setup right on their doorstep in which players can develop. The fact England can poach the top talent from these nations is unfortunate, but I think Scotland, Ireland and the Dutch all benefit enormously from their relationship with England.

England have definitely always been good to the top 3 European Associate nations. I think the ODIs they play against Scotland and Ireland actually mean very little. They don't send up a full strength side and one game every couple of years really does nothing in terms of development. Although at least they get these 2 countries ODIs at home. The involvement in the county cricket set-up is really worthwhile. Where the ECB deserve massive credit is how much they put into coaching development and training in areas like umpiring (certainly in Scotland).

In terms of the associate nations going forward I cannot really see any of the current batch progressing all the way anything soon. For the reason that none of their domestic structures are good enough. No country outside of the Test playing nations possess multi-day cricket competition to my knowledge? I may be wrong on that I know Kenya did have something a few years ago, but that is no longer around. Until a nation has that set-up they should not be considered for further honours in my opinion.

 

[Flem274*]

If Ireland were given test status (big if), I still think it would be a shame if players like Morgan weren't offered amnesty if they chose to return to their home nation.

 

[Bonnie Prince C]

If Ireland were given test status (big if), I still think it would be a shame if players like Morgan weren't offered amnesty if they chose to return to their home nation.

Yeah I would agree with that. They have obviously only chose to play cricket for England because it offers them the chance to play Test cricket. However, I can also understand if they don't because I suppose they have somewhat turned their back on Ireland for personal gain.

I think if the newly proposed Celtic Cup develop a multi-day cricket arm to it, then Ireland could be in with a decent shout.

 

[Furball]

If Ireland were given test status (big if), I still think it would be a shame if players like Morgan weren't offered amnesty if they chose to return to their home nation.

It's a joke that they don't get that now tbh. I think it's completely wrong that England were allowed to select Morgan for the World T20 in 2009 a matter of weeks after Morgan had been playing for Ireland in the World Cup qualifying event, some of which would have been classified as ODIs, yet if Ireland want to select him they need to wait 4 years after England last pick him.

What if Morgan had been a total failure for England? Ireland would have been deprived of their best player for 4 years, which is a nonsense.

 

[andruid]

England have definitely always been good to the top 3 European Associate nations. I think the ODIs they play against Scotland and Ireland actually mean very little. They don't send up a full strength side and one game every couple of years really does nothing in terms of development. Although at least they get these 2 countries ODIs at home. The involvement in the county cricket set-up is really worthwhile. Where the ECB deserve massive credit is how much they put into coaching development and training in areas like umpiring (certainly in Scotland).
In terms of the associate nations going forward I cannot really see any of the current batch progressing all the way anything soon. For the reason that none of their domestic structures are good enough. No country outside of the Test playing nations possess multi-day cricket competition to my knowledge? I may be wrong on that I know Kenya did have something a few years ago, but that is no longer around. Until a nation has that set-up they should not be considered for further honours in my opinion.

The Kenya thing wasn't sustainable cos there wasn't enough players who could find time enough off work and school to play 3 day cricket on as many weeks to justify a full on league. Hopefully something can be worked out on the new regional East africa cup

 

[Spikey]

It's a joke that they don't get that now tbh. I think it's completely wrong that England were allowed to select Morgan for the World T20 in 2009 a matter of weeks after Morgan had been playing for Ireland in the World Cup qualifying event, some of which would have been classified as ODIs, yet if Ireland want to select him they need to wait 4 years after England last pick him.

What if Morgan had been a total failure for England? Ireland would have been deprived of their best player for 4 years, which is a nonsense.

2 years either way always made the most sense to me

 

[NasserFan207]

The thing is Irish cricket would be screwed without English cricket anyway, so its hard to argue with them much.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I.e. The Ed Joyce situation.

The Irish system can't be doing too badly if it continues to develop enough players that are good enough to be picked up by counties. In the majority of cases, where the kid isn't a prodigy like Eoin Morgan, they are being picked up because of their efforts for Ireland - whether that be in underage or full age.

 

[Migara]

Yes, let them have split team options. Associate players should play in their respective ODI sides, and may play for any test side they qualify until associate team gets test status. This will allow assocaite players to grow as good players.

 

[andruid]

Yes, let them have split team options. Associate players should play in their respective ODI sides, and may play for any test side they qualify until associate team gets test status. This will allow assocaite players to grow as good players.

...and you end up in a situation where the associate player is told he either renounces the right to play for his home country or forgets about a test place. Really atm bein an associate/affiliate of the ICC is something akin to being in a ghetto. They can't throw you out cos That's cruel, but they're in no hurry to implement a proper comprehensive plan for teams that are there to farm full membership.