Pitch Bitch.

[silentstriker]

Ahh, no, no and no (and maybe another no just for good measure )

As Benchmark said, you control where the seam is pointed and that in turn dictates which way the ball will move off the seam. It mightn't move every single time, but if you are consistent with hitting the seam then it will at least some of the time.

If you're using your hand to impart sideways spin on the ball at pace (what the uninitiated call 'cutters' ) then it's equally random as if the ball doesn't land on the seam it's not going to move. By bowling with the seam pointed where you want it to go and bowling with a decent action you have a much greater chance of actually hitting it and achieving the outcome you want.

This is not your newfangled sciency hoo ha SS...this is what actually happens when you bowl a cricket ball with the seam up

I think we are saying similar things but using different terminology. If you angle your seam a certain way, it can indeed help you control it. But that's not the random movement I was talking about.

 

[smash84]

No clue. I'm trying to dig up a video atm with Ian Botham saying that there is no bowler in the world who can tell you which way he's going to seam it, can't seem to find it though.

I remember Wasim doing so many times and also explaining on TV just how he did that. It was all about seam positioning. When he used to bring the ball back into the right handers he used to turn his wrist in towards the leg side and while the seam would go down perfectly the ball would be titled somewhat towards the leg side and those deliveries would always come in. It wasn't random.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX6jORGyq-Y&feature=related

 

[Daemon]

I remember Wasim doing so many times and also explaining on TV just how he did that. It was all about seam positioning. When he used to bring the ball back into the right handers he used to turn his wrist in towards the leg side and while the seam would go down perfectly the ball would be titled somewhat towards the leg side and those deliveries would always come in. It wasn't random.

Wasim Akram 3-18 vs Aus at Melbourne (2nd ODI) 2002 - YouTube

That video shows swing tbh..

And I've seen that interview where he talked about turning his wrist, he was talking about swing there too.

Bowling Help - YouTube

 

[Son Of Coco]

Isn't this what I said earlier..? That there is luck involved but to a lesser extent because you have to be able to pitch the ball on the seam consistently

If you pitch the ball on the seam consistently when it's new and the seam's hard then it will move, there's no doubt about it. So that's not really luck. When it gets older and softer, and if the ball is decent, then as long as you can still hit the seam it will move but perhaps not as often. I guess this is where how good the seam position is and how often you can hit it bang on comes into it.

If you have a ball with a seam that goes soft quickly (lets use the piece of **** that is a Gabba ball as an example) then you'll struggle to move it off the seam once it gets past about the 20 over mark as the seam flattens right out. A good seam position will still allow you to swing it in this case though.

I'm just not sure I'd class a bowler achieving what he's attempting to do in the first place as 'luck'. To me luck suggests he's running in just trying to land it on the seam and see what happens.

 

[smash84]

That video shows swing tbh..


Bowling Help - YouTube

I was trying to find some seam videos but am at work so just posted that one "randomly"

 

[Daemon]

I'm just not sure I'd class a bowler achieving what he's attempting to do in the first place as 'luck'. To me luck suggests he's running in just trying to land it on the seam and see what happens.

Player A has a 10% chance of the ball doing what he wants it to, Player B has a 20% chance. B is more skilled then A - I accepted this point earlier saying that the amount of skill you have as a bowler means you're more likely to achieve the sort of movement you're attempting.

However, for either of them, they'll only achieve what they set out to do if they're lucky enough that a particular delivery seams off the pitch. That's what I mean at least when I've used the term 'luck' in this discussion so far.

If you look at it from the point of view of a batsmen, how is he supposed to know which direction the ball is going to go? That's where I find a similarity in seam movement and uneven bounce.

However, I do agree that the skill of a bowler dictates to a larger extent the type of lateral movement achieved, while in the case of uneven bounce it's almost entirely random (unless you know which spots on the pitch can be exploited etc), I've already accepted this point at the start of this discussion.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

With good technique, a well-equipped batsman can adjust for seam movement AND uneven bounce. Both of them, in moderate to low levels, will be in a "good" pitch. It's almost impossible to have one without the other IMO. Generally pitches with excessive uneven bounce have excessive lateral movement too, which obviously makes a "poor" pitch.

 

[benchmark00]

With good technique, a well-equipped batsman can adjust for seam movement AND uneven bounce. Both of them, in moderate to low levels, will be in a "good" pitch. It's almost impossible to have one without the other IMO. Generally pitches with excessive uneven bounce have excessive lateral movement too, which obviously makes a "poor" pitch.

Actually, a wicket with more uneven bounce is more likely to have less seam movement (cracks aside) because the ball is bursting through the surface, not gripping.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Player A has a 10% chance of the ball doing what he wants it to, Player B has a 20% chance. B is more skilled then A - I accepted this point earlier saying that the amount of skill you have as a bowler means you're more likely to achieve the sort of movement you're attempting.

However, for either of them, they'll only achieve what they set out to do if they're lucky enough that a particular delivery seams off the pitch. That's what I mean at least when I've used the term 'luck' in this discussion so far.

If you look at it from the point of view of a batsmen, how is he supposed to know which direction the ball is going to go? That's where I find a similarity in seam movement and uneven bounce.

However, I do agree that the skill of a bowler dictates to a larger extent the type of lateral movement achieved, while in the case of uneven bounce it's almost entirely random (unless you know which spots on the pitch can be exploited etc), I've already accepted this point at the start of this discussion.

I know that's only an example, but I'd rate a good bowler's chances much higher than 20% of achieving what they want to do most times re: seaming it around.

As far as seam movement goes, at least a batsman can see where it should go by looking at the seam I guess. Whereas with an up and down pitch he has no idea until it lands. And then it's too late. He can commit himself a bit earlier when looking at seam movement. Then he just has to hope it does what he thinks, or if not that he misses it.

 

[benchmark00]

I know that's only an example, but I'd rate a good bowler's chances much higher than 20% of achieving what they want to do most times re: seaming it around.

As far as seam movement goes, at least a batsman can see where it should go by looking at the seam I guess. Whereas with an up and down pitch he has no idea until it lands. And then it's too late. He can commit himself a bit earlier when looking at seam movement. Then he just has to hope it does what he thinks, or if not that he misses it.

Yeah I'd say close to 90%...

I don't bowl seam, but I still have the ability to control whether the ball seams in or not pretty much all the time (provided I'm lucky enough to land the ball on the seam, but that just comes down to me being ****).

The ability to control how much it seams is a bit different, just as much as it's impossible to control how much a ball spins all the time.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Indeed.

Certainly know of some former Test bowlers who altered their grip on the ball slightly because it was more likely to jag a certain way when they did so.

 

[Prince EWS]

Certainly know of some former Test bowlers who altered their grip on the ball slightly because it was more likely to jag a certain way when they did so.

Interesting. I've always put stuff like that down the ball swinging ever so slightly just before pitching and then continuing on the line after that, rather than actually being "controlled seam movement" as such. Result is the same, though.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Reading the last few pages of this thread it seems there are a surprising number of people who think seaming the ball is something that should be included in the curriculum at Hogwarts.

It's not magical, and it can be controlled.

 

[benchmark00]

Pretty sure if they don't mention it on cricinfo then it's not true.

 

[Daemon]

Reading the last few pages of this thread it seems there are a surprising number of people who think seaming the ball is something that should be included in the curriculum at Hogwarts.

It's not magical, and it can be controlled.

Never came across it I guess. No one I talked to in cricket out here has mentioned anything of the sort and I also took Botham's word for it.

Just justifying my previous stance here

If I wasn't such a dire pace bowler I might have tried this out for myself. Only ever bowled the cutters which involve rolling the finger over the ball. Always thought angling the seam would result in swing movement rather than seam.

 

[Son Of Coco]

To be honest mate, it's probably somewhat understandable...although I'm struggling at the moment

 

[Jarquis]

Mohammad Amir 6 wickets in 2 overs vs England in Test - YouTube

Amir's first wicket. Hits the seam and decks away.

 

[honestbharani]

And this match will probably end in less overs than that match(even about 30 overs less).

I am not sure how this pitch is awesome, and that one is the worst?

coz in one, seamers got wickets and in the other, the spinners did.

 

[honestbharani]

If every pitch was really bowler friendly, after a while that would get dull too.

I think the best thing is variety in pitches, provided there's always a contest. Be it one which bounces and seams or turns - as long as its a good contest, I'm happy with it.

The problem is with that phrase "good contest". This good contest does not hinge on the pitch alone though, but also on the skill levels of the players playing on it. The ICC super test, when the World XI were batting in their second innings, there was a period when Warney was turning it square and doing all sorts of things with the ball. Guess pitch was damp, the bounce was unpredictable, the pace was sticky and the ball was turning. But Dravid and Lara batted through it and showed how it is done for an hour or so. I am almost sure that had it been an England or a New Zealand, they would have crumbled because their players are not used to playing spin in that sort of conditions. Ditto India at Melbourne or Brisbane in the 2003 tour there in the ODIs.


And because of how our team plays on the given track, we tend to judge pitches differently. It is not always the track, sometimes how **** our team and players are in those conditions also plays a part. And most of the time, we miss out on this bit of reality.

 

[honestbharani]

It's amazing how lucky good bowlers can get. To the extent they know which way they move it even.

yeah, that is why we see them trying to get outswing with the ball starting on leg stump so often..