Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
This is a genuine question if he was only OK for Auckland why is blackcaps.co.nz showing his FC avg as 24 for last season for games in NZ. What is this factoring into account.
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*Official* New Zealand in Zimbabwe
- Thread starter James
- Start date
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
2 tests against Pakistan where he bowled a couple of decent balls throughout the tests. Still should have been canned in advance of the India series if there were decent, fit options available. He's very lucky to have made 200 wickets, which was my point in the first place.
SteveNZ's most relevant and important point is (d). There simply aren't the options that have been fit over the last couple of years. If there had been, he'd have been gone.
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Well, I guess I'm just going by what I saw. 24 is a pretty good result.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Martin could definitely have been on the scrap-heap before India based on his latest performances at that point. However O'Brien had retired, Bond's return barely happened and neither did Tuffey's. So instead we debuted McKay and Bennett, and like HDS said Martin got a free ride.
As it so happened, he rewarded us.
We are in a pretty similar situation at present; can only debut new players so fast if we want the bowling 'unit' to have any cohesion, be able to follow Taylor/Vettori's instructions etc. So despite Martin bowling poorly in Zimbabwe, he's guaranteed a place in the XI. Otherwise Southee is leader of an attack made up of debutants against Australia and South Africa this summer, which will be very very tough.
However in an alternate universe where Bond and O'Brien were still going strong for us, with Southee and the rest waiting in the wings, Martin would not be playing.
None of this detracts from the fact that Martin's been a champ for most of the last decade for us. And I'm really pleased he's made it to 200 wickets.
As it so happened, he rewarded us.
We are in a pretty similar situation at present; can only debut new players so fast if we want the bowling 'unit' to have any cohesion, be able to follow Taylor/Vettori's instructions etc. So despite Martin bowling poorly in Zimbabwe, he's guaranteed a place in the XI. Otherwise Southee is leader of an attack made up of debutants against Australia and South Africa this summer, which will be very very tough.
However in an alternate universe where Bond and O'Brien were still going strong for us, with Southee and the rest waiting in the wings, Martin would not be playing.
None of this detracts from the fact that Martin's been a champ for most of the last decade for us. And I'm really pleased he's made it to 200 wickets.
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I couldn't really care how he performed for Auckland, for a start. Yes, it was one innings in India - the point being he still has it in him. He averages 34 in 2011 - not great by any stretch of the imagination, but fairly consistent with his career numbers.
Up front with the new ball, he is still nigh on our best option. Without stats to back me up, and without having the desire to seek them, I believe his work with an older ball (not being a big proponent of reverse swing) hurts him in terms of averages. He may be a reasonably effective holding option during that time but he is not an old ball wicket taker. Never has been.
I'm still yet to hear better options.
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
As I've said, this is the one part of your argument I agree with. There aren't any better 100% fit options available; nor have there been since Bond retired and O'Brien buggered off. Who knows if the returned O'Brien will be any good, so stick with Martin. Okay. But that doesn't make him good enough right now.
EDIT: Straw Man has summed up my point of view pretty succinctly.
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Howsie
Cricketer Of The Year
No he wasn't. Martin may have picked up the best returns but Southee was easily New Zealand's best bowler during that series, he just didn't pick up the wickets he deserved.
A certain left armer from Northern Districts, Trent Boult is the name I believe, heard he goes alright....
KiWiNiNjA
International Coach
Now Martin has 200 wickets I see no reason to keep him in the side. That's the only reason I can see for him being in the side for the last year, to get to that milestone.
Yeah, he has been a good servant to NZ cricket, but he isn't that awesome to play ahead of a younger talent. The same sort of thinking should really apply for the likes of Arnel/Aldridge/Tuffey/McKay. It's not like they are Shane Bonds.
It's time to see Southee and Vettori joined by Boult/Bracewell/Bennett/Milne/Wheeler etc.
Yeah, he has been a good servant to NZ cricket, but he isn't that awesome to play ahead of a younger talent. The same sort of thinking should really apply for the likes of Arnel/Aldridge/Tuffey/McKay. It's not like they are Shane Bonds.
It's time to see Southee and Vettori joined by Boult/Bracewell/Bennett/Milne/Wheeler etc.
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Issue is....Bennett is severely broken down and already noises are being made about him not playing Test/four-day cricket again. His action, coupled with his frame, just isn't up to it for any period of time. They're hesitant to rush Milne in due to age, and injuries again - he's more likely to get a run in colours for a decent period first. Wheeler is injured at the moment as well.
I doubt anyone sees the 200 milestone as a reason to keep him in, nor sentimentality, nor anything apart from doing the job on the day. Pretty sure I read somewhere that NZ had talked about getting away from milestone focus - ie 50s/100s, career stats etc at the possible suffering of the match scenario at the time.
I doubt anyone sees the 200 milestone as a reason to keep him in, nor sentimentality, nor anything apart from doing the job on the day. Pretty sure I read somewhere that NZ had talked about getting away from milestone focus - ie 50s/100s, career stats etc at the possible suffering of the match scenario at the time.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Don't really agree with Kiwininja here. Say Australia get off to a great start - 150/0 after 40 overs on the first morning, everyone has taken a bit of tap. Martin has experience in that situation... Quite a lot of experience! Without him there would be a much higher risk of our attack completely going to pieces.
Anyway, as others pointed out Martin didn't have much cricket prior to that Zimbabwe test and it's not like he looked particularly down on pace due to being so ancient. If he has a terrible Australian series more serious questions will be asked, though I don't think he will; should retire after SA series IMO.
Anyway, as others pointed out Martin didn't have much cricket prior to that Zimbabwe test and it's not like he looked particularly down on pace due to being so ancient. If he has a terrible Australian series more serious questions will be asked, though I don't think he will; should retire after SA series IMO.
KiWiNiNjA
International Coach
If none of the ready youngsters are available, of course I would be in favour of Martin starting a test ahead of Milne/Wheeler.
But if Boult/Bennett are fit, I'd rather them play over Martin. Against Australia, maybe Martin might still be useful, but against Zimbabwe at home defo younger talent.
But if Boult/Bennett are fit, I'd rather them play over Martin. Against Australia, maybe Martin might still be useful, but against Zimbabwe at home defo younger talent.
Howsie
Cricketer Of The Year
Not if he plays to his career average he wont be. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Martin averages something ridiculous like 80 against the Aussies
86. Not ideal...Not if he plays to his career average he wont be. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Martin averages something ridiculous like 80 against the Aussies
However, on a muggy first morning in Brisbane, I'm still backing him to cause a few problems. Especially seeing Australia might have 3 left-handers in their top six.