Kallis Vs Dravid

[BlazeDragon]

 

[BlazeDragon]

I think so, yes. I think most people take it into account when assessing the records of guys like Pollock and Donald, and I'm sure I've seen it crop up in criticism of Kallis's bowling.

I don't really think it should matter that Kallis had to bat on SA pitches. Even they are green pitches its his home conditions he should be doing well in there. I would say that England pitches are quite similar to SA pitches. If he had done well in there then maybe you could have said that he was the one of the top best green pitch player. Dravid on the other hand has done well on the and I think that makes up for it. Overall, I would rate Kallis better because he has just done better in general not because of any pitches.

IMO if you want to look at well how well a player has done in different conditions you should always look at their away records first. Its just not fair looking at their home records because pretty much everybody does well in conditions they are familiar with.

As for Donald and Pollock they have done quite well on flat pitches as well. Kallis on the other hand has good records in bowling based pitches like SA and England. But Kallis is a not a specialist bowler so I doesn't really matter anyways. His bowing will mostly be always brought up when talking about him as an all rounder and most all rounders have that kind of problems with their secondary skill I think.

Of course they're always discounted and that's why Ntini isn't often mentioned when we talk about great bowlers here. On the other hand, Steyn, Donald and Pollock have great away records.

If SC bowlers should be given extra points for doing well in SC.. eg. Imran doing well in Pakistan. then SA batsmen should be given extra points for doing well in their country.

Ntini has actually done better on flat pitches of India then bowling pitches of England. But Ntini isn't considered great bowler in general simply because he is not one.

And if you wanna use Imran Khan as an example, yes he has done great in flat Pakistani pitches but they are also his home pitches, they are conditions he is familiar with. He hasn't done that great in flat pitches of India in conditions he doesn't so know well. So you can't just declare him the greatest flat track bowler or anything like that. That's why I say you should always look at away records if you wanna see how a player fairs in different conditions.

 

[cnerd123]

We are debating Kallis and Dravid here if you hadn't noticed. You said that entertainment factor would be applicable to them because they are "very close" as oppose to a Dravid and Afridi debate. I was simply pointing out to you that its a pretty bad logic.

A difference of 4 runs in batting average can be made up by watchability.

A difference of 20 odd runs cannot.

Simple logic. Easy to understand his point. You're either thick or trolling.

 

[robelinda]

Please list the tons Kallis has scored on a green top SA wicket. I won't hold my breath. So many myths in cricket, this is a good one.

 

[cnerd123]

Also, there are double standards happening here.

You either discredit a player for performing well in his home conditions, be they batsman or bowler, or you credit batsmen for playing on tough pitches and bowlers for bowling on tough pitches.

Saying Imran deserves more respect for bowling on flat decks, and then not give Kallis his due for scoring heavily on South Africa tracks is wrong. As is praising Kallis for his performances at home but discrediting Imran's efforts in the subcontinent.

 

[BlazeDragon]

A difference of 4 runs in batting average can be made up by watchability.

A difference of 20 odd runs cannot.

Simple logic. Easy to understand his point. You're either thick or trolling.

Do you understand how much a career difference of 4 actually means in a longevity of somebody's career? How does Dravid being "more watchable" help him provide more to his team?

You have no right to be calling anyone thick with dull logic like that. Also, I believe calling names is trolling.

 

[BlazeDragon]

Also, there are double standards happening here.

You either discredit a player for performing well in his home conditions, be they batsman or bowler, or you credit batsmen for playing on tough pitches and bowlers for bowling on tough pitches.

Saying Imran deserves more respect for bowling on flat decks, and then not give Kallis his due for scoring heavily on South Africa tracks is wrong. As is praising Kallis for his performances at home but discrediting Imran's efforts in the subcontinent.

I hope your not talking to me here since I'm saying Kallis does NOT deserve extra points for batting is SA.

 

[Top_Cat]

Baldly, it's not a statistically significant difference, no matter how you slice, manipulate, recalculate or model it. This is not to say that there's not a significant difference between Dravid and Kallis but that the measures suck.

This why just about every statistical argument between guys who are even vaguely close falls down. Once you start drilling down for further insight, you bump into small cells and big errors. It's thoroughly pointless, just about every generated statistic I've seen using cricket stats is able to be shot to pieces without trying too hard.

 

[robelinda]

Imran actually DID bowl really well on the dead Pakistan pitches, yet there is scant evidence Kallis has done anything good on a SA green top, as I've yet to see him score runs on a green top, surely runs against a pathetic NZ or Bangladesh attack should count as GREAT innings on a green top in SA. Its no myth that Pakistan pitches were flat.......

 

[BlazeDragon]

Imran actually DID bowl really well on the dead Pakistan pitches, yet there is scant evidence Kallis has done anything good on a SA green top, as I've yet to see him score runs on a green top, surely runs against a pathetic NZ or Bangladesh attack should count as GREAT innings on a green top in SA. Its no myth that Pakistan pitches were flat.......

Other than Australia and Sri Lanka, Kallis has done well against pretty much every other opposition in his home
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Top_Cat]

All that said, if anyone wants to sponsor me to do a LMM study of Kallis', Dravids' and, say, Pontings' innings by watching those in the sample ball-by-ball with footage provided by Rob, I'm available...

Puttin' it out there.

 

[akilana]

Imran actually DID bowl really well on the dead Pakistan pitches, yet there is scant evidence Kallis has done anything good on a SA green top, as I've yet to see him score runs on a green top, surely runs against a pathetic NZ or Bangladesh attack should count as GREAT innings on a green top in SA. Its no myth that Pakistan pitches were flat.......

back again Kallis-hate? those hundreds in 2005 against England.. hundreds against England in 2009 spring to mind

 

[robelinda]

Other than Australia and Sri Lanka, Kallis has done well against pretty much every other opposition in his home
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Of course he bats well at home, the argument put forward is that he has mastered grassy seaming pitches in SA, of which there is little evidence, the scorecards don't tell you how green the pitch was......my video collection does though.

 

[robelinda]

back again Kallis-hate? those hundreds in 2005 against England.. hundreds against England in 2009 spring to mind

Well those were fine hundreds, but can any of them be used as an example of mastering green pitches? And if they are the only ones, then its a pretty small amount of hundreds, and hardly conclusive evidence he mastered anything but easy bowling attacks in SA.

 

[akilana]

Yes they can be used as examples

they are not the only ones.. just a few that I remember

easy bowling attacks? ya knew you don't like kallis.. but yeah whtever

 

[robelinda]

No need to be rude, if you don't want to have a discussion then don't. Give me more examples, or is that it? One of those 2004/05 tons was on a pitch not even close to green. Im well prepared to go through every Kallis innings in SA and provide as many details as possible to back up my argument, but my mind can be changed with proper evidence, rather than sarcastic lazy comments from yourself.

 

[BlazeDragon]

Of course he bats well at home, the argument put forward is that he has mastered grassy seaming pitches in SA, of which there is little evidence, the scorecards don't tell you how green the pitch was......my video collection does though.

I think you have been watching too much Australia. Its no myth either that batting is hard on SA.

Batting records throughout Kallis's career in SA:
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Only Australia are the ones with something to fuss about there. Considering they were an ATG side that did everywhere its not surprising.

By "green tops" we do mean bowler friendly pitches and its no myth. In recent times they have been the best country for bowlers.

The Numbers Game: The best country for fast bowlers | Regulars | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[robelinda]

Stats don't tell you how green a pitch is. Where are all these fabulous green top innings? You can't look up stats on cricinfo to tell you that.

 

[cnerd123]

I hope your not talking to me here since I'm saying Kallis does NOT deserve extra points for batting is SA.

Not aimed at you, just a general insight to some comments made here.

 

[Ikki]

Personally, I am okay with arguments stipulating that a player is underrated because his home conditions are difficult in comparison to some away conditions. I use this point when talking about Warne, often. But that logic falls to bits when these players (be it the Pakistani bowlers at home or Kallis' batting at home) actually do better at home in the "harder" conditions.