Mohammad Yousuf vs V.V.S Laxman

[r3alist]

complete cobblers.

far better batsmen than moyo have not ended up with averages close to 60. his purple patch would almost certainly have been balanced out by a trough - happened to ponting, dravid, hussey and co.

I kindly beg to differ.

I watched him play throughout his purple patch, on average a pointing tendulkar would be more prolific, but this peak was something apart.

was it not the greatest purple patch in recent history I think, because it broke a fair few records, did it not? So not just any old purple patch.

You have to appreciate that his average had already jumped from being mid 40's to mid 50's in a few years, enormous jump, and it showed no sign of diminishing anytime soon.

That sort of jump is rare for an established batsmen, he somehow become more focused and immovable than before, his century scoring during this phase proves that, I strongly believe that his run scoring streak had another 12 months, where I think his average would have been pushed to around 58 - 60 (it was 56 before he started pissing about), and then it would have dropped back a notch or two.

Just a prediction, my basic point is that before icl and captaincy hoo hah his stats were on a SPECTACULAR one way trajectory, upwards.

 

[marc71178]

How many games did he lose due to the ICL?

Looking at his record it can be seen that he didn't play a Test between December 2007 and July 2009, but it is also seen that he missed a total of 2 Tests in that time. As good as he was batting, I can't see he'd have scored 550 runs in those 2 games without being dismissed.

 

[r3alist]

I think he missed a period between 2007 and 2009 when he was recalled.

Straight after that he decided he wanted to be captain.

 

[marc71178]

Yes, he did miss a period, one that included a whole 2 Test matches - there's no way he'd have bene averaging 60 if he'd played those 2 games.

 

[r3alist]

That's true I guess, however my point also covered how the disruptions and hassles would have arrested his momentum, never knowing if he had a future or not for a long time.

 

[marc71178]

Your point is irrelevant as any momentum would be countered by the lack of Tests the Pakistani's had in the period.

 

[hang on]

I kindly beg to differ.

I watched him play throughout his purple patch, on average a pointing tendulkar would be more prolific, but this peak was something apart.

was it not the greatest purple patch in recent history I think, because it broke a fair few records, did it not? So not just any old purple patch.

You have to appreciate that his average had already jumped from being mid 40's to mid 50's in a few years, enormous jump, and it showed no sign of diminishing anytime soon.

That sort of jump is rare for an established batsmen, he somehow become more focused and immovable than before, his century scoring during this phase proves that, I strongly believe that his run scoring streak had another 12 months, where I think his average would have been pushed to around 58 - 60 (it was 56 before he started pissing about), and then it would have dropped back a notch or two.

Just a prediction, my basic point is that before icl and captaincy hoo hah his stats were on a SPECTACULAR one way trajectory, upwards.

i watched him play through that period and after. i agree that his purple patch was of the most royal kind and watching him then was an exhilarating experience.
but even before the gap due to the icl and captaincy related - anything from 2008 onwards, i would imagine - brouhaha and distractions and bans and suchlike, his form had started tailing off:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

he played 6 tests with 12 innings including 2 not outs and scored 368 runs at an average of 36.8 with 0 100s and 2 fifties. not an upward trajectory at all, leave alone a spectacular
one.

during his purple patch, youhana scored something like 2000 odd runs in 13 tests with 10 100s and an average of about 105.
other established batsmen have had 'similar' purple patches. there was a 13 test match perriod starting with the cricketing calender 2005/06 during which ponting scored a massive amount of runs at an average of 90 odd, also with 10 100s.

 

[r3alist]

Your point is irrelevant as any momentum would be countered by the lack of Tests the Pakistani's had in the period.

With 2 tests you were good for two centuries at that time.

And surely it's not hard to understand that the disruptions/controversies simply weren't good for him, he was no longer yusuf the quiet classy scorer of runs, but someone embroiled in controversies, if he stuck to just getting on with playing like he had done for the rest of his career (2-3 years) then yes, the purple patch would have continued for longer, and probably not such a sharp drop.

i watched him play through that period and after. i agree that his purple patch was of the most royal kind and watching him then was an exhilarating experience.
but even before the gap due to the icl and captaincy related - anything from 2008 onwards, i would imagine - brouhaha and distractions and bans and suchlike, his form had started tailing off:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

he played 6 tests with 12 innings including 2 not outs and scored 368 runs at an average of 36.8 with 0 100s and 2 fifties. not an upward trajectory at all, leave alone a spectacular
one.

during his purple patch, youhana scored something like 2000 odd runs in 13 tests with 10 100s and an average of about 105.
other established batsmen have had 'similar' purple patches. there was a 13 test match perriod starting with the cricketing calender 2005/06 during which ponting scored a massive amount of runs at an average of 90 odd, also with 10 100s.

I never knew ponting did that well, I guess not so unprecedented, but still the best in modern times, I think.

 

[hang on]

not unprecedented but still astonishingly good. and perhaps the best in recent memory, at least for established batsmen. i do think that chanderpaul had a couple of astonishingly fruitful years in the mid to late noughties though can't really be arsed to look it up!

 

[Spark]

Ponting's peak was the highest of any modern batsman's, IMO, because his lasted aaages.

He was averaging close to sixty after more than a hundred Tests (in a sense that shows how far he's fallen too)

 

[hang on]

he was averaging 59.99 after 107 tests with 33 100s!
think that dravid was also pretty damned impressive....he was averaging around 58.75 or thereabouts after 104 tests with 23 100s. tendulkar was averaging about 58.5 after 103 tests with 31 100s.

 

[smash84]

that is pretty spectacular from Ponting but as Spark says equally bad as well after that

 

[shankar]

he was averaging 59.99 after 107 tests with 33 100s!
think that dravid was also pretty damned impressive....he was averaging around 58.75 or thereabouts after 104 tests with 23 100s. tendulkar was averaging about 58.5 after 103 tests with 31 100s.

If weighted for the respective periods of run scoring, this was a stupendous run...

 

[Furball]

Ponting's peak was the highest of any modern batsman's, IMO, because his lasted aaages.

He was averaging close to sixty after more than a hundred Tests (in a sense that shows how far he's fallen too)

Bradman scored 6,996 runs in 52 Tests.

cricinfo recently tried to find the next best run of 52 Tests (or it might have been 80 innings, can't remember which.) Anyway, Ponting had the next best run after Bradman, with just over 5,000 runs at an average of about 70 IIRC.

 

[Ikki]

Bradman scored 6,996 runs in 52 Tests.

cricinfo recently tried to find the next best run of 52 Tests (or it might have been 80 innings, can't remember which.) Anyway, Ponting had the next best run after Bradman, with just over 5,000 runs at an average of about 70 IIRC.

Yes, I remember that one. Ponting was simply something else in those days. Even in his youth, the way he played the best bowlers exemplified his really rare and special talent.

Unfortunately, as Spark says, his fall from grace these last few years has hidden, for some, just how supreme he was/can be.

 

[The Sean]

If weighted for the respective periods of run scoring, this was a stupendous run...

They all were.

Yes, I remember that one. Ponting was simply something else in those days. Even in his youth, the way he played the best bowlers exemplified his really rare and special talent.

Unfortunately, as Spark says, his fall from grace these last few years has hidden, for some, just how supreme he was/can be.

Indeed - just six Test tons in nearly five years seems ridiculous considering his performances before that. I wouldn't call him the greatest batsman after Bradman, but I've got no issue with the argument that his 4-5 year peak or whatever it was was the greatest run of form since The Don. It wasn't just his runscoring (which was astonishing), it was his dominance at the crease as well - there were so many times during that period where it just looked like he would never get out.

 

[amanuensis]

Does anyone have a link to that cricinfo article? I remember reading it at the time, but can't find it now.

Going back to the original question, I really don't get the "cult of Laxman". He's had some wonderful moments in test cricket, but surely not enough to be taken seriously at the highest level?

 

[shankar]

They all were.

Of course they're all great runs. But I was speaking relatively. The average of batsmen during the post 2002 phase against most teams balloons compared to the previous 10 years. If weighted for this (i.e. the average against individual teams during the two periods) I believe (I haven't actually done the exercise) Tendulkar's run would stand out from among the last 20 years.

 

[hang on]

regarding the second greatest 80 innings stretch of run scoring, i, too, would love to get hold of the cricinfo article. anyway, without that article, i had a quick look at ponting's astonishing feat:

between tests 63 and 107 (innings 99 and 179), ponting scored 4993 runs at an average of 74.52 with 19 100s. staggering.

perhaps he had an even better tranche of run scoring but couldn't be arsed to figure that out. also had a gander at sobers's feats; he had an 80 innings tranche of scoring where he averaged 72 odd with 18 100s. incredible.

 

[intcricket]

Laxman. Yousuf had a few good years. Laxman had a lot of them. And batting against the best got the best out of him.

PS- It is so heartening to see a fair assessment by the members here.