Marshall vs Hadlee - Poll Added

[ankitj]

Why hasn't Outswinger@Pace not posted in this thread yet? Isn't he the biggest Hadlee fan around? Would love to hear his perspective on this thread

 

[Army_Guy]

Dude you should be out on the PT grounds .....

What do you mean by THAT low?

Also who was the best batting team in the 80s? Sri Lanka?

Donald gets extra marks for doing well in Asia and Imran doesn't?

So Imran doesn't get marks for bowling well abroad?

It can't be both ways

There are only 2 formidable Asian oppositions back then one of them being Imran's home so that's not foreign condition for him. Most of his record in Asia comes from doing well in his own home his record is not that great in India.

As for who was the best with the bat back then, I believe it was India but they were about as strong as the India of the modern era to be frank. Australia batting wise in the modern era have been on a whole different level.

And what do I mean by THAT low? As low as Imran obviously. His average drops all the way down to 24 when you take out the minnows. I have seen lots of people mention era in bowler threads in this place but even if you don't take the era into consideration he wouldn't even make a top 10 list with that. Even his own predecessors Wasim and Waqar has the lead on him.

Hell comes out ahead even if you take out minnows from Donald and don't from Imran. Just shows how horribly underrated Donald is being here.

 

[kyear2]

I agree, Donald is very under rated. From his era I personally rate him below only Mcgrath and Ambrose and ahead of Akram. He was seriously fast, good accuratecy and could swing it. His head dropping every now and again shouldn't factor into it for me.

 

[robelinda]

I agree, Donald is very under rated. From his era I personally rate him below only Mcgrath and Ambrose and ahead of Akram. He was seriously fast, good accuratecy and could swing it. His head dropping every now and again shouldn't factor into it for me.

 

[Sanz]

There are only 2 formidable Asian oppositions back then one of them being Imran's home so that's not foreign condition for him. Most of his record in Asia comes from doing well in his own home his record is not that great in India.

As for who was the best with the bat back then, I believe it was India but they were about as strong as the India of the modern era to be frank. Australia batting wise in the modern era have been on a whole different level.

And what do I mean by THAT low? As low as Imran obviously. His average drops all the way down to 24 when you take out the minnows. I have seen lots of people mention era in bowler threads in this place but even if you don't take the era into consideration he wouldn't even make a top 10 list with that. Even his own predecessors Wasim and Waqar has the lead on him.

Hell comes out ahead even if you take out minnows from Donald and don't from Imran. Just shows how horribly underrated Donald is being here.

Once again battle of averages. Imran owned Indian batsmen and against Indian batsman I would take Imran any day ahead of Donald on any surface.

 

[Army_Guy]

Once again battle of averages. Imran owned Indian batsmen and against Indian batsman I would take Imran any day ahead of Donald on any surface.

Well some of us actually value actual records more than your words so excuse us. I bet people like you would be the first ones to jump to averages when somebody says Kapil Dev was better than Imran Khan.

It really doesn't matter to me what you would rather take. A wild opinion is nothing more than just a wild opinion if you can't back it up.

 

[Army_Guy]

His head dropping every now and again shouldn't factor into it for me.

Ha ha yeah he was always really angry when things didn't go his way

Allan Donald fuming - YouTube

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Blimey, Donald's bowling really reminds me of Bondeh.

 

[hang on]

india were certainly not the best batting side around during the west indian era of dominance. the west indian lineup was definitely better. greenidge, haynes, richards, richardson, gomes, lloyd, dujon beats any indian batting lineup of the time hands down. towards the later part of the west indian domination i.e. the late 80s and early 90s, the australians were better than the indians.

Imran owned Indian batsmen and against Indian batsman I would take Imran any day ahead of Donald on any surface.

is that really true - about imran 'owning' indian batsmen more than donald on any surface?

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

guess not.

 

[pavops]

In my straw poll of things read and heard in my life, I'd say there's more reverence around for Marshall, but I suppose that will have been weighted by the tragically obviously. What was the series in Aus that Hadlee dominated? The first one NZ won there maybe? My tram won't weight for statsguru.

 

[hang on]

but I suppose that will have been weighted by the tragically obviously.

not in my case, for sure. thought that long before he started playing for the heavenly 11.

 

[smash84]

There are only 2 formidable Asian oppositions back then one of them being Imran's home so that's not foreign condition for him. Most of his record in Asia comes from doing well in his own home his record is not that great in India.

As for who was the best with the bat back then, I believe it was India but they were about as strong as the India of the modern era to be frank. Australia batting wise in the modern era have been on a whole different level.

Imran's record in India is not bad either. And Imran ran through India a number of times during his time even if at his home. He was very good against India and according to Sunny the best that he ever faced.

At any rate WI batting definitely trumped the Indian batting in the late 70s and 80s. I wonder what criteria are you using to say the Indian batting was best?

 

[Sanz]

Well some of us actually value actual records more than your words so excuse us. I bet people like you would be the first ones to jump to averages when somebody says Kapil Dev was better than Imran Khan.

I am not an Imran worshiper but to call his performance against India as not that great and then go defend Donald's performance against Australia is just the height of objectivity in the argument you present. I can see how well you have looked at their actual records.

 

[Army_Guy]

Imran's record in India is not bad either. And Imran ran through India a number of times during his time even if at his home. He was very good against India and according to Sunny the best that he ever faced.

At any rate WI batting definitely trumped the Indian batting in the late 70s and 80s. I wonder what criteria are you using to say the Indian batting was best?

I never said it was bad I am saying that Donald's is a lot better. Donald overall faced 3 formidable Asian oppositions and all 3 being in away conditions that most foreign bowlers struggle with. He is better is Asia no doubt about it.

And I just did a stats check of around the years Imran played WI and guess what I was right India were the strongest batting line up back then.
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Army_Guy]

I am not an Imran worshiper but to call his performance against India as not that great and then go defend Donald's performance against Australia is just the height of objectivity in the argument you present. I can see how well you have looked at their actual records.

When did I exactly defend Donald's performance against Australia? All I said was its silly to rate him below a guy who averages 24 without minnows just because of an average of only 31 against 1 country when he is clearly ahead on everything else and that too against arguably one of the the strongest batting line up of all time.

Also, try looking in the mirror once in a while. You said Imran > Donald over anyday. What kind of fantasy records are you using to justify that?

 

[Hurricane]

When did I exactly defend Donald's performance against Australia? All I said was its silly to rate him below a guy who averages 24 without minnows just because of an average of only 31 against 1 country when he is clearly ahead on everything else and that too against arguably one of the the strongest batting line up of all time.

Also, try looking in the mirror once in a while. You said Imran > Donald over anyday. What kind of fantasy records are you using to justify that?

DingDong also has a location of M in his profile or he used to...lets add you to the witchhunt for multis...

 

[Sanz]

When did I exactly defend Donald's performance against Australia? All I said was its silly to rate him below a guy who averages 24 without minnows just because of an average of only 31 against 1 country when he is clearly ahead on everything else and that too against arguably one of the the strongest batting line up of all time.

First of all SriLanka were not a minnow in 1980s, those who continue to call SL team of 80s as minnow have basically zero credibility on cricket. Secondly Between 1982-1986 when Imran bowled against Sri Lanka he also happened to be at his peak as a bowler. During that period Imran's bowling average against all nations was 14.31 which is lower than his average against SL. To claim that Imran benefited from bowling against a weaker team is just a statistical fallacy and nothing more.

And lastly you can prefer Donald over Imran and that would be a perfectly valid opinion but to demean Imran's achievement to make Donald look good is almost equivalent to losing your argument.

Also, try looking in the mirror once in a while. You said Imran > Donald over anyday. What kind of fantasy records are you using to justify that?

I said I will pick Imran ahead of Donald against India anyday. It has nothing to do with stats, I watched both of them bowl against some of the best indian batsmen, I really do not care much for their statistical record against India.

 

[Army_Guy]

First of all SriLanka were not a minnow in 1980s, those who continue to call SL team of 80s as minnow have basically zero credibility on cricket. Secondly Between 1982-1986 when Imran bowled against Sri Lanka he also happened to be at his peak as a bowler. During that period Imran's bowling average against all nations was 14.31 which is lower than his average against SL. To claim that Imran benefited from bowling against a weaker team is just a statistical fallacy and nothing more.

And lastly you can prefer Donald over Imran and that would be a perfectly valid opinion but to demean Imran's achievement to make Donald look good is almost equivalent to losing your argument.



I said I will pick Imran ahead of Donald against India anyday. It has nothing to do with stats, I watched both of them bowl against some of the best indian batsmen, I really do not care much for their statistical record against India.

Oh please now Sri Lanka weren't a minnow back then

Anybody that watched cricket in the 80's would have agreed that they were minnows. Their record were is similar to Zimbabwe of the the 90's to early 00's and they didn't even play WI the strongest team of their era. I guess Zimbabwe weren't a minnow either then now . Your creditability in cricket seems about as much as Tendulkar fanboys that call him God.

I am really getting tired of these stupid exchange with you. Now your trying to deny and manipulate actual history to benefit your precious Imran Khan. I mean really what a joke. Sri Lanka are all of a sudden not a minnows of the 80's. I have never even seen a Sri Lankan person deny that.

And I will bet that in your mind everybody loses the argument to you.

I have no interest in someone with ridiculous opinion like yours that he can never back and expects us to just take his words has to say. In that sense I am very grateful that we have stats so we can actually prove people like you wrong.

 

[Ikki]

I think both were great bowlers but I do think Donald was maybe a touch better. Also, SL were minnows and whether Imran was averaging a tad higher than 14 (his average against SL) is irrelevant because it still inflates his record somewhat.

 

[Hurricane]

Well my personal opinion is that Marshall is the GREATEST bolwer of all time, so he is ahead for me, but among fast bowlers Hadlee is in the top five, so not that much to separate them. Great bowlers both, but Marshalls sheer speed, hostility and swing wins it for me.

Hadlees swing = Marshall's swing
Hadlees pace < Marshall's pace by some distance

I reckon we are primarily voting for Marshall because he is quicker because I can argue that Hadlee is as good at everything else. Reckon it should be more based on other factors than pace. I can't back this up with logic this is just my feeling on the matter.