Wasim Akram vs. Waqar Younis vs. Imran Khan

[smash84]

But why would you discount Imran's career record before 1975 or after 1988 ? Imran was a great fast bowler but if you are simply going to use selective stats to further rate him , why not also look at his career Away record ? There is a huge difference between his home and away records a lot more than any other great bowler. And isn't it an exaggeration that Imran outperformed his competitors in the WSC ? I would love to see the stats of all the seasons in the WSC, if that is the criteria used to make that suggestion.

After 1988 Imran wasn't really much of a bowler (after 1989 or 1990 he bowled very little if any in tests) and before 75-76 he wasn't a fast bowler. In WSC he was somewhat better than his competitors (at least in terms of avg and SR although he did not play quite as much being part of ROW)

World Series Cricket Player Records - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

best average and SR among the bowlers here.

 

[smash84]

And mind you I am not denying that Imran was a great bowler, having watched him bowl, I have no doubt that he is among the greatest but to say that he is seriously under-rated is simply not true. Underrated by whom and where ? I see on this forum he is considered among the best of the best.

.

Yeah awta that he generally gets his dues on this forum. I think subs point is that he belongs in the same class as Hadlee, McGrath, Donald, Marshall etc

But why would you discount Imran's career record before 1975 or after 1988 ? Imran was a great fast bowler but if you are simply going to use selective stats to further rate him , why not also look at his career Away record ? There is a huge difference between his home and away records a lot more than any other great bowler.

Despite the difference in his home and away record (which is around 6 runs I think) he still averages 25 against every body) and sub 30 in EVERY country that he bowled in. That is a serious achievement. So while you may be right in claiming that there is a gap in his home and away bowling on an absolute level he is quite outstanding away from home

I am sorry but I find that hard to consider the above point, Didn't Pakistan have Fazal Mahmood, Sarfaraz etc before Imran ? He came from a cricketing family and definitely had the culture that was different from the one we saw in Pakistan.

Emmm no. None of those guys had genuine pace (from what I have read). I only saw Imran live not the other ones.

 

[smash84]

And if you Give Imran credit for all the positives of the above cricketers, does he also get the blame for all negatives the above have been part of ?

Don't you think it is a little silly to be putting this argument here? The negatives of those bowlers did not spring from their cricketing skills. Why blame Imran for their off field activities?

 

[subshakerz]

And if you Give Imran credit for all the positives of the above cricketers, does he also get the blame for all negatives the above have been part of ?

My point was that Imran has an actual fast bowling legacy that can be directly linked to him. I just give Imran credit for being an inspiration for the above to pursue fast bowling. Similar to Gavaskar being an inspiration for a whole generation of Indian batsmen to come after him, perhaps moreso. In Wasim and Waqar's case, he actually mentored them on the skills they used for the rest of their careers. If they screwed up later, how is that Imran's fault?

 

[subshakerz]

And mind you I am not denying that Imran was a great bowler, having watched him bowl, I have no doubt that he is among the greatest but to say that he is seriously under-rated is simply not true. Underrated by whom and where ? I see on this forum he is considered among the best of the best.

I feel his is underrated in comparison to Akram, most Pakistani fans like myself I talk to say that Imran is the best cricketer but Akram is the better bowler. Subcontinent fans seem so enamored with Akram that they give Imran less credit than he should get. And Imran is often thought of as all-rounder and captain first, bowler next.

I am sorry but I find that hard to consider the above point, Didn't Pakistan have Fazal Mahmood, Sarfaraz etc before Imran ? He came from a cricketing family and definitely had the culture that was different from the one we saw in Pakistan.

Until Imran came along, Pakistan was like India, never having a quality express paceman who could take wickets through sheer speed. Imran shattered that myth.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Until Imran came along, Pakistan was like India, never having a quality express paceman who could take wickets through sheer speed. Imran shattered that myth.

That's a completely irrelevant point to where Imran stands as a fast bowler. It's like saying that until Wasim came along, the world had never seen a bowler who was diabetic, and yet bowled so quick and impressively.

And personally, I'd say Wasim impresses me far more as far as the pioneering stakes go.

 

[smash84]

And personally, I'd say Wasim impresses me far more as far as the pioneering stakes go.

pioneer in terms of?

 

[G.I.Joe]

Diabetics who bowl fast and rank among the best to have ever played the game.

Being the first to do something is a lot more impressive if there was a handicap to be overcome to begin with. Being (arguably) the first sub-continental bowler to bowl fast doesn't require one to overcome a significant barrier. There were no laws prohibiting people from the region from bowling fast. Being a diabetic who bowls fast and belongs to the pantheon of the greatest ever does involve overcoming a significant obstacle.

This is not an argument for the debate on who was the greatest bowler of the three in question, but only my view on the fallacy of employing empty emotion to further buttress a point already well-made.

 

[mono]

I haven't seen too much of Imran, but wasim>waqar

 

[smash84]

Diabetics who bowl fast and rank among the best to have ever played the game.

Being the first to do something is a lot more impressive if there was a handicap to be overcome to begin with. Being (arguably) the first sub-continental bowler to bowl fast doesn't require one to overcome a significant barrier. There were no laws prohibiting people from the region from bowling fast. Being a diabetic who bowls fast and belongs to the pantheon of the greatest ever does involve overcoming a significant obstacle.

This is not an argument for the debate on who was the greatest bowler of the three in question, but only my view on the fallacy of employing empty emotion to further buttress a point already well-made.

emmm no.....Wasim wasn't always diabetic. I think he only had it towards the last 4 or 5 years of his career. Not sure though

 

[G.I.Joe]

emmm no.....Wasim wasn't always diabetic. I think he only had it towards the last 4 or 5 years of his career. Not sure though

And he continued bowling. Which is the pertinent point.

 

[zaremba]

at one point during the 1980s he had an eight-series run where he averaged sub-20 in every series, and took 154 wickets at 14.85.

Blimey.

And subshakerz just pwning all.

Yep, loved subshakerz's post, pretty much articulated what I would like to have been able to have articulated half as articulately as he did had I been sufficiently articulate

 

[Furball]

Was articulate your word of the day?

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

Blimey.



Yep, loved subshakerz's post, pretty much articulated what I would like to have been able to have articulated half as articulately as he did had I been sufficiently articulate

If this short post is any indication, your level of articulation does not leave a lot to be desired.

 

[Teja.]

Imran > Waqar > Wasim as test bowlers and while from a practical POV, the difference is negligible, my views are set fairly in stone regarding the order.

This lovely anecdote sums up perfectly just how much raw brutality Imran packed as a bowler at his frightening peak

The Maharajah of Baroda, who was the Indian team manager, had said to Wasim Bari earlier on the tour: "We have a batting line-up, till No. 11, and nothing can go through them." Wasim replied, "You haven't seen Imran yet because even if you have 15, he'll go through you."

It'd be amazing if someone uploaded Imran's spell of five wickets for three runs in twenty five balls on a ridiculously flat pitch to account for the Indian top order in the game following that anecdote.

Agree with the general sentiment that Imran purely as a bowler is underrated. Some of his demolitions of ridiculously strong teams in tough conditions are astonishing tstl. Would probably the be the first pacer I'd pick if I was playing a Mars XI and then bowl him in tandem with McGrath. Even overall has as valid a contention for being the very very best post-1920 pacer as McGrath or Marshall, IMO.

I get blown away every-time I remind myself not only was he that good a bowler but...

 

[BlazeDragon]

Agree with the general sentiment that Imran purely as a bowler is underrated. Some of his demolitions of ridiculously strong teams in tough conditions are astonishing tstl. Would probably the be the first pacer I'd pick if I was playing a Mars XI and then bowl him in tandem with McGrath. Even overall has as valid a contention for being the very very best post-1920 pacer as McGrath or Marshall, IMO.

I get blown away every-time I remind myself not only was he that good a bowler but...

 

[Teja.]

Haha, 'Twas foolish of me, in hindsight, to just drop the word considering I don't know if it's still in vogue in CW. Inactivity is my excuse.

Approx, The Mars XI is a PEWS-ian hypothetical concept of a team assembled from another planet which has players with considerably better abilities than the earthlings.

 

[subshakerz]

It'd be amazing if someone uploaded Imran's spell of five wickets for three runs in twenty five balls on a ridiculously flat pitch to account for the Indian top order in the game following that anecdote.QUOTE]

Here, swinging it like a banana at high pace.
Imran Khan vs India 1982/83 in Pakistan - YouTube

 

[smash84]

Imran > Waqar > Wasim as test bowlers and while from a practical POV, the difference is negligible, my views are set fairly in stone regarding the order.

This lovely anecdote sums up perfectly just how much raw brutality Imran packed as a bowler at his frightening peak

The Maharajah of Baroda, who was the Indian team manager, had said to Wasim Bari earlier on the tour: "We have a batting line-up, till No. 11, and nothing can go through them." Wasim replied, "You haven't seen Imran yet because even if you have 15, he'll go through you."

It'd be amazing if someone uploaded Imran's spell of five wickets for three runs in twenty five balls on a ridiculously flat pitch to account for the Indian top order in the game following that anecdote.

Agree with the general sentiment that Imran purely as a bowler is underrated. Some of his demolitions of ridiculously strong teams in tough conditions are astonishing tstl. Would probably the be the first pacer I'd pick if I was playing a Mars XI and then bowl him in tandem with McGrath. Even overall has as valid a contention for being the very very best post-1920 pacer as McGrath or Marshall, IMO.

I get blown away every-time I remind myself not only was he that good a bowler but...

haha.....what an anecdote

Gun post

dude I hope you are back for good on the forum

 

[G.I.Joe]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you're going to use absurd PEWS constructs like a 'Mars XI' (please don't hurt me PEWS ), then be accurate all the way through. Mars XI's play on reddish dustbowls, which means the Earth XI would need to be packed with spinners, not quicks.