Dennis Lillee - Did he swing the ball?

[weldone]

Ah, could never guess that you're originally from India!

How come Richard Hadlee is your favorite given that his main weapon was inswinger@(not-so-much-)pace? Outswinger@pace username reiminds me of Lillee, Holding and yes, Wasim.

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

Ah, could never guess that you're originally from India!

How come Richard Hadlee is your favorite given that his main weapon was inswinger@(not-so-much-)pace? Outswinger@pace username reiminds me of Lillee, Holding and yes, Wasim.

I admire all of those that you mentioned a lot. In many ways, Lillee can be considered the spiritual guru of most pace bowlers after him and even Hadlee idolised him. I took to Hadlee easily because I thought he had a tremendous action and carried the team on his shoulders for years.

He was also quick in his earlier years (with that longer run), before becoming a polished customer. And I was under the impression that Hadlee's best ball was the one that looked to come in a bit and then seamed away after pitching. A conventional inswinger wasn't initially a part of his armoury but after his Nottingham stint (1979 or so), Hadlee became a complete bowler with great command of swing and seam. Still the main mode of his dismissals was getting the right-handers caught behind/ in the slips with ones that swung or seamed away and getting some occasional awkward lift from a compulsive playing channel.

Or so I gathered from what I read and followed of his career. A good example of the master working over batsmen with intelligence and skill:

Richard Hadlee vs Ian Botham- supreme swing bowling, what a master! - YouTube

 

[bagapath]

Ah, could never guess that you're originally from India!

How come Richard Hadlee is your favorite given that his main weapon was inswinger@(not-so-much-)pace? Outswinger@pace username reiminds me of Lillee, Holding and yes, Wasim.

Lillee never swung the ball, IMO. a great seamer, yes, but swing? nah! will fish out an old bob simpson piece on this in sportstar from 15 years ago.

 

[weldone]

Lillee never swung the ball, IMO. a great seamer, yes, but swing? nah! will fish out an old bob simpson piece on this in sportstar from 15 years ago.

Lillee was a very good swing bowler. It's another matter that he sometimes under-used swing because he thought it lessens his pace. I read Lillee saying that somewhere but can't find it. But it should follow from the following quote from Lillee:

"The most critical part of swing bowling is the way you let go of the ball from the hand. If this is not done with a high degree of precision, the ball will not swing at all or will swing only a little and too early in its flight to be any great danger to the batsman. It starts with the grip of the ball, which should be made by contact of the index and middle fingers on the top of the ball and the thumb at the bottom. This contact should be towards the tips of the fingers and the thumb (what we call ‘fingering’ the ball), because if the ball is gripped too deeply in the hand, the critical control needed to send the ball away correctly may be lost. The hand should be directed behind the ball at the point of delivery and must not undercut on either side. The ball is sent away with a natural under-spin, and I believe the more under-spin imparted on the ball the later it will swing. The seam should remain vertical throughout the flight down the wicket "

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

Lillee never swung the ball, IMO. a great seamer, yes, but swing? nah! will fish out an old bob simpson piece on this in sportstar from 15 years ago.

I am pretty sure Lillee was adept as swinging the ball. Never watched him live, but the highlights of almost all of his major bowling spells are on YouTube.
I've also been fortunate to watch ball-by-ball videos of a few spells from his early career. And having read his auto, I am sure that the master had swing as well as seam and cut in his repertoire.

The nature of bouncy Australian wickets meant that he relied more on seaming the ball and bowling quick or bowling cutters, but whenever the situation demanded it, he swung it in the air too. As Weldone rightly points out, Lillee's classical outswinger was one to die for.

 

[Hurricane]

I admire all of those that you mentioned a lot. In many ways, Lillee can be considered the spiritual guru of most pace bowlers after him and even Hadlee idolised him. I took to Hadlee easily because I thought he had a tremendous action and carried the team on his shoulders for years.

He was also quick in his earlier years (with that longer run), before becoming a polished customer. And I was under the impression that Hadlee's best ball was the one that looked to come in a bit and then seamed away after pitching. A conventional inswinger wasn't initially a part of his armoury but after his Nottingham stint (1979 or so), Hadlee became a complete bowler with great command of swing and seam. Still the main mode of his dismissals was getting the right-handers caught behind/ in the slips with ones that swung or seamed away and getting some occasional awkward lift from a compulsive playing channel.

Or so I gathered from what I read and followed of his career. A good example of the master working over batsmen with intelligence and skill:

Richard Hadlee vs Ian Botham- supreme swing bowling, what a master! - YouTube

great clip.

 

[JBMAC]

Lillee never swung the ball, IMO. a great seamer, yes, but swing? nah! will fish out an old bob simpson piece on this in sportstar from 15 years ago.

Please post that article. Lillee did swing the ball. Check how many LBWs/Caught behinds in his dismissals then tell me the ball did not swing. I was fortunate when DKL was recurperating from his extensive physio in Brisbane to have faced him. He was a prodigious swinger of the ball and he was bowling at only one quarter of his pace and this was in warehouse division.( For your info I made only six)

Lillee was a very good swing bowler. It's another matter that he sometimes under-used swing because he thought it lessens his pace. I read Lillee saying that somewhere but can't find it. But it should follow from the following quote from Lillee:

"The most critical part of swing bowling is the way you let go of the ball from the hand. If this is not done with a high degree of precision, the ball will not swing at all or will swing only a little and too early in its flight to be any great danger to the batsman. It starts with the grip of the ball, which should be made by contact of the index and middle fingers on the top of the ball and the thumb at the bottom. This contact should be towards the tips of the fingers and the thumb (what we call ‘fingering’ the ball), because if the ball is gripped too deeply in the hand, the critical control needed to send the ball away correctly may be lost. The hand should be directed behind the ball at the point of delivery and must not undercut on either side. The ball is sent away with a natural under-spin, and I believe the more under-spin imparted on the ball the later it will swing. The seam should remain vertical throughout the flight down the wicket "

QUOTE=Outswinger@Pace;2659317]I am pretty sure Lillee was adept as swinging the ball. Never watched him live, but the highlights of almost all of his major bowling spells are on YouTube.
I've also been fortunate to watch ball-by-ball videos of a few spells from his early career. And having read his auto, I am sure that the master had swing as well as seam and cut in his repertoire.

The nature of bouncy Australian wickets meant that he relied more on seaming the ball and bowling quick or bowling cutters, but whenever the situation demanded it, he swung it in the air too. As Weldone rightly points out, Lillee's classical outswinger was one to die for. [/QUOTE]

See explanation above for bagpath please

 

[Fusion]

I’ve moved all Dennis Lillee discussion from the Welcome to Cricket Chat thread to here. I think it’s a great discussion and deserved its own thread.

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

I’ve moved all Dennis Lillee discussion from the Welcome to Cricket Chat thread to here. I think it’s a great discussion and deserved its own thread.

Good thought that!

... Lillee did swing the ball. Check how many LBWs/Caught behinds in his dismissals then tell me the ball did not swing. I was fortunate when DKL was recurperating from his extensive physio in Brisbane to have faced him. He was a prodigious swinger of the ball and he was bowling at only one quarter of his pace and this was in warehouse division.( For your info I made only six)

Well, there we have it from a man who dared to pad up to Lillee. Superb input, good sir and much appreciated!

 

[weldone]

I’ve moved all Dennis Lillee discussion from the Welcome to Cricket Chat thread to here. I think it’s a great discussion and deserved its own thread.

Uh! When I saw a new thread created by me, I thought my account had been hacked!

Edit: In before some Aussies start bashing the thread-creator after seeing the title of the thread only - Fusion is to blame...

 

[GotSpin]

haha the first post is gold

 

[fredfertang]

Lillee didn't swing the ball when he was here in England in 1972, though he did move it away a bit off the seam, but he was probably just too quick - His partner that series was Bob Massie of course, and he swung the ball around more than any other bowler I have ever seen. By the time he came back in 1975 Lillee had added swing to his armoury, albeit not a lot 'cos he was still ****ing quick. Lillee circa 1981 moved it both ways in the air and off the seam

I can see why Simmo might talk that down though I'd be interested to know when he said - if it was around 78/79 it would probably be to try and boost the confidence of that dodgy third eleven he skippered during the Packer hiatus and if it was when he was coach, ie after 86, by which time DK was long retired, it was probably for much the same reason given how ****e Australia were then (though as we all know they weren't that way for long)

 

[robelinda]

Insanity, Lillee could swing it when he wanted, easily. Lillee in his last say 4 or 5 years swung it heaps, especially vs NZ and India in 1980.

 

[Top_Cat]

According to Rod Marsh, one of his earliest Lillee memories (and what convinced him Lillee was going to be a champion) was his hooping outswing. This was when they were playing Colts for WA.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah, I recall Marsh saying wtte Lillee bowled outswing at 90mph, and if you can do that you'll always take wickets.

 

[Debris]

Lillee could definitely swing the new ball when he wanted to. He had pretty much the full toolkit of a fast bowler with the possible exception of an inswinger ( and reverse swing, of course).

 

[Burgey]

Lillee could definitely swing the new ball when he wanted to. He had pretty much the full toolkit of a fast bowler with the possible exception of an inswinger ( and reverse swing, of course).

I wouldn't say he had a great yorker either. He could bowl an inswinger but rarely. More often an off cutter.

 

[bagapath]

my opinion is heavily colored by that simpson article. i had seen lillee's clips only after he retired. didnt get to follow his career when he was still playing. so i am not sure either way. but, i know now that his leg cutters and off cutters got him more wickets than traditional (or reverse) swing bowling. so i put two and two together and formed my opinion i have no problems changing it. but i am still not sure if i should. it is unfortunate that i am not able to find that piece. it was quite persuasive in making me believe that swing was not DK's strength.

 

[smash84]

From what I have read about Lillee he had all the deliveries in his repertoire (some were obviously not as good as others which is true for any bowler) be it seam or swing (except reverse swing). He could move the ball in the air and off the pitch (with the new ball) from what I recall reading about him.

 

[timet]

Apart from his bowling, he was also an absolute character. Do you remember Lillee and his aluminium bat?

Dennis Lillee uses Aluminium Bat! (Cricket ) - YouTube

This incident was responsible for changes to the Laws of cricket - whereby your bat must now be made of wood.