Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[Himannv]

Was it only spin that Sobers bowled? I understand he could bowl pace reasonably well if he really fancied it.

 

[honestbharani]

Was it only spin that Sobers bowled? I understand he could bowl pace reasonably well if he really fancied it.

That is the point, if he averaged 32 as a pace bowler then he perhaps averaged 36 as a spinner ( a very rough cut calculation).. And again, that is not so far off the mark of the era averages then...

 

[Himannv]

Dont know if I'm bothered about averages. Some fabulous bowlers have poor averages at times. My uncle watched a lot of Sobers and what he told me was that Sobers was definitely a frontline bowler. Not the best in his era but more than capable of being a handful. Why are we trying to discredit Sobers here again? There are countless people who have watched him and played against him and rank him exceptionally highly. Both him and Imran are exceptional players among many thousands. One may be better than the other but surely pointing at a few numbers to show one in a bad light is nothing more than nitpicking.

 

[Ikki]

You setup the boundaries and rules based on what you want to argue. If you decided to argue that Botham was an ATG bowler you would change those boundaries. The prime example of you shifting the Goal post is the fact that you have even questioned the Batting Stats of Sobers claiming that he was minnow basher or something along those lines.

So now you've resorted to making up an an example of goal shifting that has not occurred here and has nothing to do with Botham being seen as an ATG.

As for Sobers' batting; I consider him the best #6 of all time and one of the few batsmen who can legitimately be called the best after Bradman. Do I think his average is slightly inflated? Sure. But he is still awesome anyway. I just added that since you went on a tangent.

And there is enough statistical proof, for you it may not be enough, it is enough for me and for many,if not most, fans :-

Stats analysis: Garry Sobers: An allrounder like no other | Specials | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

I am not here to convince you, you can believe whatever you want. The fact is that you ignore the stats when they do not go in favor of your player you believe is better. Mcgrath Vs. Marshall and Warne Vs. Murali debates are prime examples.

You made a lofty claim, so I think it is on you to prove it and thus far you've shown you really don't know why exactly you rate him so highly yourself nor do you know which exact stats make him so great.

I looked at that link; it essentially is calling him a great all-rounder because of the differential in the bowling and batting averages.

It has all the stats I referred to in this thread and it points to his 7 year run as a decent bowler; neglecting the rest of the 13 years of tripe he bowled.

That's such a silly and impractical logic, considering that you have an ATG XI with Sobers and Shane Warne. This ATG XI is playing against India in a series and the ATG bowler is getting hammered by even the no-names like Rajesh Sutars of the world, Would you still stick to your ATG bowler and not bring Sobers who has a good track record against India ?

If you are so much into selecting bowlers by looking at stats, would ever select Shane Warne in a series against India over say Niky Boje ?

Sobers was a poor spinner and was mainly a success against India bowling pace. He had a good initial series against them but, let's be honest, India were pretty much minnows. The idea that I'd bowl Sobers because Warne would get hit around is funny. If I wanted to lose on purpose, sure.

Sobers doesn't get a bowl, ever, unless it is a pure throw-the-kitchen-sink move. If Warne is getting hit bowling spin, then I'd let my pacers clean up India. However you cut it, he isn't good enough to bowl in such a side.

 

[Sanz]

Dont know if I'm bothered about averages. Some fabulous bowlers have poor averages at times. My uncle watched a lot of Sobers and what he told me was that Sobers was definitely a frontline bowler. Not the best in his era but more than capable of being a handful. Why are we trying to discredit Sobers here again? There are countless people who have watched him and played against him and rank him exceptionally highly. Both him and Imran are exceptional players among many thousands. One may be better than the other but surely pointing at a few numbers to show one in a bad light is nothing more than nitpicking.

Well that exactly is the point. Everyone who watched Sobers, played with/against him suggests that he was front line bowler. But unfortunately that is not enough for some individuals. Heck they aren't even willing to except Sobers' greatness as a batsman without taking some shots at his batting.

 

[Ikki]

Actually Imran's batting average is only 1.61 runs higher compared to other top order batsman of his era. While there is no doubt about his bowling, the bowling average of fast bowlers of that era was 28.55 which is 5.74 more then Imran.

If I were to only include specialist bats for Imran, then I'd have to exclude bowlers who were clearly part-time and didn't bowl enough in Sobers' analysis which would further hit his record.

Nevertheless, even with your filtering Imran is still superior to the average top order batsman of his time. Sobers is not even equal to the average bowler of his time.

Sobers averaged 22.36 runs higher then a top order batsman of his time. His bowling average is also comparable to that era as its only 2.85 higher.

Correction: Sobers is 2.85 points higher than the AVERAGE of his time and 12.1 points higher than the SR of his time. A very mediocre record.

Lets not forget fielding, Imran was below average as he had .22 dismissals/per inning vs .34 dismissals/per inning of non-wicketkeepers. Sobers had .68 dismissals/per inning vs .33 dismissals/per inning of his era

Sobers was much the better fielder, no argument. Whether this makes up for his bowling is another matter.

Regarding captaincy, Imran is remembered mainly for winning the '92 WC and rightly so, but Pakistan would not have qualified for the knockout if this match wasn't interrupted by rain and opinion of his captaincy would be different. For someone rated so highly as a captain Imran only won 1 series away from the subcontinent against England in '87. Sobers' record as a captain wasn't bad, he had 9 wins, 10 loss and 20 draws out of 39 matches while Imran had 14-8-26 record. If we are to use away record which is a true test of a captain Sobers had 7-7-5 record and Imran has 5-6-15 record.

Imran was the better, more successful, captain. Full stop.

 

[Ikki]

Looking at the Era Average for Spinners :- Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Era Average - 32.71, SR 88.9 ER = 2.22
Sobers - 34.03, SR 91.9, ER - 2.22

Seems consistent with the Era.

So he was WORSE than the average spinner of his time, despite bowling as a pacer for years.

That is the point, if he averaged 32 as a pace bowler then he perhaps averaged 36 as a spinner ( a very rough cut calculation).. And again, that is not so far off the mark of the era averages then...

No, that's the point; he is still worse than the average pacer of his time (which was 29.40)...and that's just average. When you consider his SR it is even worse.

Ironically, in one of the links that Sanz provided; Lance Gibbs was striking faster than Sobers during Sobers' peak period, despite the fact that Sobers was also a pacer.

 

[honestbharani]

So he was WORSE than the average spinner of his time, despite bowling as a pacer for years.



No, that's the point; he is still worse than the average pacer of his time (which was 29.40)...and that's just average. When you consider his SR it is even worse.

Ironically, in one of the links that Sanz provided; Lance Gibbs was striking faster than Sobers during Sobers' peak period, despite the fact that Sobers was also a pacer.

despite what? did u actually see them play to see when they bowled and how they bowled? Men who have seen that rate Sobers that high....

 

[Ikki]

despite what? did u actually see them play to see when they bowled and how they bowled? Men who have seen that rate Sobers that high....

In the period from 61-68 in that sample which Cricinfo was praising Sobers...his SR and average were still higher than Lance Gibbs. Lance Gibbs was solely a spinner, whereas throughout this period Sobers was regularly a pacer.

When a bowler's stats are that much above the average then watching him to know of his quality is not much of an issue - we're not peddling over 1-2 points here.

 

[Ikki]

This is the peak that Cricinfo is lauding. It's pretty good but it only makes up 1/3 of his career. It fails to mention, however, the rest of his 20 year career. The period directly before it and the period directly after it.

So, at his peak (61-68) he averaged 27.93 and struck at 76.3 in 33 Tests. For the rest of his career he averaged 40.97 and struck at 109.6 in 60 Tests. And if you look at his figures closely the only team he is much better average is against India.

 

[Sanz]

Sobers was a poor spinner and was mainly a success against India bowling pace. He had a good initial series against them but, let's be honest, India were pretty much minnows. The idea that I'd bowl Sobers because Warne would get hit around is funny. If I wanted to lose on purpose, sure.

Sobers doesn't get a bowl, ever, unless it is a pure throw-the-kitchen-sink move. If Warne is getting hit bowling spin, then I'd let my pacers clean up India. However you cut it, he isn't good enough to bowl in such a side.

Poor spinner on the basis of what ? Specialist spinners of his era like Gupte, Gibbs averaged around 29. Sobers averaged 34. Gibbs was probably among the top spinners of his time had a SR of 87.7, Sobers SR was 91.9. Considering the environments (opposition, pitch, conditions) would be so identical for both of them, Sobers compares pretty well to another specialist spinner from his team of that era, alf Valentine.

And I am not sure how you use your stats but based on Warne's record against India, I am surprised that you would even consider him bowling. I have bigger chance of winning against India with Sobers bowling than with Warne.

 

[Sanz]

So he was WORSE than the average spinner of his time, despite bowling as a pacer for years.

Have you identified the average spinners of his time ?

In the games that Gibbs and Sobers bowled together, exact same opposition, exact same condition.

Gibbs SR is 87.7, Sober SR is 89.2
Gibbs avg. is 29, Sobers Avg is 32.6

Not much difference I would say.

Valentine & Sobers in the team, same conditions, oppositions :-

Valentine SR is 109, Average 38.7
Sobers' SR is 97, Average 34.56

 

[Burgey]

Still don't understand why people don't accept Sobers and Imran were very different players.

 

[Jono]

That's not how CW rolls Burgey. You know that.

 

[Burgey]

That's not how CW rolls Burgey. You know that.

Yeah I know, but it's like comparing a top order player to a guy who bats six.

Their roles were very different IMO.

 

[weldone]

Sobers' bowling was like a mixture of a Zaheer Khan and a Daniel Vettori (both style-wise and performance-wise).

Imran Khan's batting was like Yuvraj Singh's (not style-wise, but performance-wise), perhaps?

 

[subshakerz]

Regarding captaincy, Imran is remembered mainly for winning the '92 WC and rightly so, but Pakistan would not have qualified for the knockout if this match wasn't interrupted by rain and opinion of his captaincy would be different. For someone rated so highly as a captain Imran only won 1 series away from the subcontinent against England in '87. Sobers' record as a captain wasn't bad, he had 9 wins, 10 loss and 20 draws out of 39 matches while Imran had 14-8-26 record. If we are to use away record which is a true test of a captain Sobers had 7-7-5 record and Imran has 5-6-15 record.

Sorry, but the greatness in Imran's captaincy can't be found in just his numbers, you have to look at the change in team outlook when he started and when he left, how he united the most divisive team in the world, and picked and nutured young talent out of nowhere.

Even in terms of achievements, he had three consequtive drawn series against the world no.1, WI, (in fact, he was the only captain I believe to win a test and not lose a series in the WI in the decade), first ever victories in India and England, an unbeaten home record, and the World Cup. All great achievements. Sobers, on the other hand, is recognized as a merely decent captain, and by some accounts, a poor one. The gap between their captaincy is nearly as much as their fielding.

 

[Sanz]

Sorry, but the greatness in Imran's captaincy can't be found in just his numbers, you have to look at the change in team outlook when he started and when he left, how he united the most divisive team in the world, and picked and nutured young talent out of nowhere.

Even in terms of achievements, he had three consequtive drawn series against the world no.1, WI, (in fact, he was the only captain I believe to win a test and not lose a series in the WI in the decade), first ever victories in India and England, an unbeaten home record, and the World Cup. All great achievements. Sobers, on the other hand, is recognized as a merely decent captain, and by some accounts, a poor one. The gap between their captaincy is nearly as much as their fielding.

Certainly agree with the above. Imran's captaincy should truly be called leadership. There have been many captains who probably were better in terms of devising strategy but there aren't many better leaders than Imran on a cricket field. I may sound ignorant here but I can't think of anyone except Sir Frank Worrell who would have so much impact on his cricket team during his time and someone whose legacy lasted for years after his retirement .

I disagree with those who continue to put question mark on Pakistan's WC victory and Imran's Leadership, I perhaps have been guilty of that as well, but without Imran's leadership there was no WC for Pakistan team. No way.

 

[robelinda]

but without Imran's leadership there was no WC for Pakistan team. No way.

The same has been said for every WC winning captain over the years, except from those Ponting haters. Border, Dev, Waugh, Lloyd etc all were hailed for their leadership in WC wins(even Dhoni!). Obviously a huge part of Imran's legacy is the 92 WC.

 

[subshakerz]

The same has been said for every WC winning captain over the years, except from those Ponting haters. Border, Dev, Waugh, Lloyd etc all were hailed for their leadership in WC wins(even Dhoni!). Obviously a huge part of Imran's legacy is the 92 WC.

Really? I only seem to recall Waugh and Dhoni as being praised for their captaincy as a major reason leading to the WC victory, and having seen both cups, they deserve credit.

In Imran's case, it's pretty evident that his captaincy raised the game of his team after they were near knockout.