Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[Outswinger@Pace]

Now we know the secret behind all the smilies. Smali is a girl, lol. No wonder he is in love with Imran.

I rather fancied my chances with her! Being a fellow Imran fan surely ought to be considered in my favour as well.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

If you are going to consider an AT XI, I would have to go for Sobers over Imran, although I believe that in general Sobers is overrated and Imran is underrated.

For one, as has already been pointed out, Sobers's batting > Imran's bowling and Sobers's bowling > Imran's batting.

Regarding the bowling, Sobers had a freakishly low economy rate (2.2), so using him in an AT XI scenario would force the opposing batsmen to try and score runs off Akram, Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Warne et al, which would be suicidal. Plus Sobers had the ability to bowl more than one style, which means that he would be more versatile.

 

[kyear2]

If you are going to consider an AT XI, I would have to go for Sobers over Imran, although I believe that in general Sobers is overrated and Imran is underrated.

For one, as has already been pointed out, Sobers's batting > Imran's bowling and Sobers's bowling > Imran's batting.
Regarding the bowling, Sobers had a freakishly low economy rate (2.2), so using him in an AT XI scenario would force the opposing batsmen to try and score runs off Akram, Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Warne et al, which would be suicidal. Plus Sobers had the ability to bowl more than one style, which means that he would be more versatile.

So how exactly is he over rated?

 

[kiwiviktor81]

I meant overrated in comparison to Imran. Sobers was the greatest of all, but Imran was much better than he gets credit for.

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

I meant overrated in comparison to Imran. Sobers was the greatest of all, but Imran was much better than he gets credit for.

Very difficult to overrate someone who is the greatest of all.

While I'd agree with you that Imran in general is underrated among quite a few cricketing circles, that certainly isn't the case on this forum. There are a lot of knowledgeable students of the game in here who would ensure that such a thing never happens.

 

[BlazeDragon]

I think it was weldone who once claimed that there is no such thing as the all-rounder problem in cricket - that teams don't necessarily need one.

I agree in a way. Specialists > All rounders always for me. I wouldn't say that they don't really need one but I am guessing if they could find a better specialist player they would take that over the all rounder option.

Sobers here would get in the greatest team as a specialist batsman. Imran won't as a bowler though.

 

[smash84]

Good lord, are you a girl? I should have been better behaved in our encounters, in that case.

This will teach you to behave with people you don't know well enough

Now we know the secret behind all the smilies. Smali is a girl, lol. No wonder he is in love with Imran.

Guy or girl, East or West, Imran is the best

I rather fancied my chances with her! Being a fellow Imran fan surely ought to be considered in my favour as well.

For one, as has already been pointed out, Sobers's batting > Imran's bowling and Sobers's bowling > Imran's batting.

Plus Sobers had the ability to bowl more than one style, which means that he would be more versatile.

That is the crux of the matter. Is Sobers's bowling really better than Imran's batting (as was pointed out earlier by myself, Bagapath, and Ikki). Sobers's bowling doesn't seem to be matching up to the hype.

Plus Sobers's spin was not very good. Apparently he was at his best as a pace bowler.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Sobers was at his best as a pace bowler, and he averaged about 32 after he concentrated on that. Imran averaged 37 with the bat. Neither is stellar, but I think there are more batsmen around with averages over 37 then there are bowlers with averages under 32.

FWIW, here is a link to the Wisden Leading Cricketer in the World table. Imran appears once, Sobers eight times.

 

[weldone]

I think it was weldone who once claimed that there is no such thing as the all-rounder problem in cricket - that teams don't necessarily need one.

I think while regular teams would gladly welcome all-rounders, weldone's is a point well made when picking all-time sides IMO, especially the all time World XI.

Glad that you remember.

Yes I agree. And even in non-AT World XI sides, I believe an allrounder should be welcomed only when he's able to make the team on one discipline alone, at least. I hate 'bats a bit, bowls a bit' players getting the nod ahead of specialists.

In other words, if India gets a player who bats like Venugopal Rao and bowls like Jaidev Unadkat selectors will take him in the team as an allrounder in the blink of an eye. But I won't agree with the decision.

 

[smash84]

yeah but we are not really talking about bits and pieces players are we? We are talking about genuine all rounders

 

[weldone]

yeah but we are not really talking about bits and pieces players are we? We are talking about genuine all rounders

Extending the same logic to All-Time XIs, some genuine allrounders from different eras might become bits and pieces players in an all-time XI, i.e., they might not make the XI on one discipline alone.

I personally prefer 6 best batsmen (2 openers and 4 middle-order batsmen to be specific) 4 best bowlers and 1 best wicketkeeper-batsman in my all-time XI. Now if one or two among those 6 and 4 do reasonably well in the other discipline as well, that's an added advantage. Sobers will surely make 6 best batsmen of all-time in my book. I'm OK with someone placing Imran among 4 best bowlers of all-time too (though I personally will keep him just out of that).

The bowling of Sobers or the batting of Imran will not be of much use when the All-Time XI plays against a team of equivalent calibre.

 

[Ikki]

Botham also averages 30.59, Kapil 30 so yes an average of 30.75 is comparable as an opening bowler. Not too long ago, you were arguing that the difference between Marshall's and Mcgrath was so little that it was easy to pick one over the other. Needless to say that withing a week, you have moved the goalpost. Now the criteria you want to use is SR, whereas you ignored the Strike Rate in the Mcgrath Cs. Marshall discussion and wanted to compare other "categories" such as "era adjustments".

The suggestion that caring about SR for an opening bowler is moving the goal posts is a load of manure. The whole role of an opening bowler is to strike, and fast. What a shoddy way to save face.

IF Sobers shared a similar average and SR to guys like Kapil and Botham when opening you'd have a point; but he doesn't. His SR is some 20-30 points worse.

Actually they do. A bowler who was capable of taking 20+ wickets on a no. of occasions in a series, who was asked to share major chunk of team's bowling by his captains which included Sir Frank Worrell, consistently contributed with ball in his teams wins etc. has to be a good bowler.

You still haven't done it, try harder. We aren't talking about a bowler who could bowl a bit when needed; we are talking about a 'fantastic' bowler...remember? Still waiting for these stats, thanks.

FTR

Botham's Bowling average isn't <25
Kapil's Bowling average isn't < 25 neither is his SR < 60

And neither are pure ATGs as bowlers. They are ATGs purely as all-rounders.

Its simple play Sobers and loose a bit as a support bolwer or Bothan or Kapil and loose just as much or more with the bat. Play Imran and its the same and you loose quite a bit in the field as well.
The strange thing is that you and smalishah84 have Sobers in your teams at the All Rounder Position at 6, though you also have Miller in your 11, but Malisha84 uses the same Sobers as her fifth bowling option and bats Imran below Gilchrist at 8.

Why would I bowl Sobers at all? How do you know Smali does? In my team Sobers is not good enough to get a bowl. I have all 3 in my team (Sobers, Miller and Imran) but Sobers is there purely as a bat.

 

[Ikki]

Ikki... I have been enjoying your arguments in this thread and basically agree with a lot of them. Only one thing I want to bring to your notice. We all know Sobers' batting and Imran's bowling are top notch stuff - top 5 of all time in their respective fields. And Sobers' bowling of 34 avg and 90+SR is definitely bad as you say when compared to regular bowlers. But, Imran's 37 batting avg is also equally bad when you compare it with regular batsmen. The question is: who is better, Sobers the bowler or Imran the batsman? The other way around they are equals and Sobers is way ahead as a fielder. Only their weaker departments need to be analyzed. The answer lied somewhere there.

I personally dont need too many runs from players batting below no.7. and I dont expect my 5th bowler to do more than support my main strike bowlers. so i think sobers provides better allround balance to me than imran.

Actually, I'd say Imran's batting is better than Sobers' bowling with respect to bowling and batting overall. Sobers' bowling does not even touch the average bowler's performance of his time - whether that be a spinner or a pacer. Imran averages 7 points higher with the bat than the average batsman of his time. I have my own reservations on his batting but the worst I'd say is his batting was average, with respect to his era average.

Another important point, that I mentioned earlier, is that one is a bowling all-rounder and the other is a batting all-rounder. All bowlers have to bat, but not all batsmen have to bowl. In this regard, Imran's skill gains a lot of importance.

I personally wouldn't bowl Sobers at all in my side because when I pick an ATG side I think I am facing a side just as good as mine and think the extra batting will be useful. Only my #10 and #11 can't really hold a bat.

 

[Sanz]

And neither are pure ATGs as bowlers. They are ATGs purely as all-rounders.

They were very good bowlers. No one is calling them great as bowlers although a case could be made. Neither is anyone calling Sobers' bowling as ATG.

 

[Ikki]

They were very good bowlers. No one is calling them great as bowlers although a case could be made. Neither is anyone calling Sobers' bowling as ATG.

Yet you replied to me under the seemingly mistaken belief that I considered them ATGs because of a certain statistical boundary I had set up.

The point/question is, and still remains to be proved, which stats show him to be a "fantastic" bowler. Fantastic is what I'd call Botham or Dev - just short of ATG, but very good nonetheless. Sobers has a hard time showing himself as even "average" over his whole career. So, I am still interested in to see if you would still provide the stats that back the historians or retract that statement altogether.

I have a hunch you know you can't prove it and therein is the problem. As much as I respect historians or expert opinion, I have to have certain statistical proof to back their assertions. I can do that with Lillee, I can do that with Richards, I can do that with Hobbs, I can do that with Warne...but I cannot do that with Sobers. His stats just don't match up to the hype.

I'd still call him an ATG all-rounder, but I would place him behind Miller, Imran and possibly Botham depending on how you view him. The myth that he is the best all-rounder and there is little to dispute that has been perpetuated for far too long IMO.

 

[Sanz]

Yet you replied to me under the seemingly mistaken belief that I considered them ATGs because of a certain statistical boundary I had set up.

You setup the boundaries and rules based on what you want to argue. If you decided to argue that Botham was an ATG bowler you would change those boundaries. The prime example of you shifting the Goal post is the fact that you have even questioned the Batting Stats of Sobers claiming that he was minnow basher or something along those lines.

The point/question is, and still remains to be proved, which stats show him to be a "fantastic" bowler. Fantastic is what I'd call Botham or Dev - just short of ATG, but very good nonetheless. Sobers has a hard time showing himself as even "average" over his whole career. So, I am still interested in to see if you would still provide the stats that back the historians or retract that statement altogether.

I have a hunch you know you can't prove it and therein is the problem. As much as I respect historians or expert opinion, I have to have certain statistical proof to back their assertions. I can do that with Lillee, I can do that with Richards, I can do that with Hobbs, I can do that with Warne...but I cannot do that with Sobers. His stats just don't match up to the hype.

And there is enough statistical proof, for you it may not be enough, it is enough for me and for many,if not most, fans :-

Stats analysis: Garry Sobers: An allrounder like no other | Specials | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

I am not here to convince you, you can believe whatever you want. The fact is that you ignore the stats when they do not go in favor of your player you believe is better. Mcgrath Vs. Marshall and Warne Vs. Murali debates are prime examples.

I'd still call him an ATG all-rounder, but I would place him behind Miller, Imran and possibly Botham depending on how you view him. The myth that he is the best all-rounder and there is little to dispute that has been perpetuated for far too long IMO.

Don't do Sobers a favor by calling him an ATG.

 

[Sanz]

I personally wouldn't bowl Sobers at all in my side because when I pick an ATG side I think I am facing a side just as good as mine and think the extra batting will be useful. Only my #10 and #11 can't really hold a bat.

That's such a silly and impractical logic, considering that you have an ATG XI with Sobers and Shane Warne. This ATG XI is playing against India in a series and the ATG bowler is getting hammered by even the no-names like Rajesh Sutars of the world, Would you still stick to your ATG bowler and not bring Sobers who has a good track record against India ?

If you are so much into selecting bowlers by looking at stats, would ever select Shane Warne in a series against India over say Niky Boje ?

 

[quytst0rm]

Actually, I'd say Imran's batting is better than Sobers' bowling with respect to bowling and batting overall. Sobers' bowling does not even touch the average bowler's performance of his time - whether that be a spinner or a pacer. Imran averages 7 points higher with the bat than the average batsman of his time. I have my own reservations on his batting but the worst I'd say is his batting was average, with respect to his era average.

Actually Imran's batting average is only 1.61 runs higher compared to other top order batsman of his era. While there is no doubt about his bowling, the bowling average of fast bowlers of that era was 28.55 which is 5.74 more then Imran.

Sobers averaged 22.36 runs higher then a top order batsman of his time. His bowling average is also comparable to that era as its only 2.85 higher.

Lets not forget fielding, Imran was below average as he had .22 dismissals/per inning vs .34 dismissals/per inning of non-wicketkeepers. Sobers had .68 dismissals/per inning vs .33 dismissals/per inning of his era

Regarding captaincy, Imran is remembered mainly for winning the '92 WC and rightly so, but Pakistan would not have qualified for the knockout if this match wasn't interrupted by rain and opinion of his captaincy would be different. For someone rated so highly as a captain Imran only won 1 series away from the subcontinent against England in '87. Sobers' record as a captain wasn't bad, he had 9 wins, 10 loss and 20 draws out of 39 matches while Imran had 14-8-26 record. If we are to use away record which is a true test of a captain Sobers had 7-7-5 record and Imran has 5-6-15 record.

 

[smash84]

Regarding captaincy, Imran is remembered mainly for winning the '92 WC and rightly so, but Pakistan would not have qualified for the knockout if this match wasn't interrupted by rain and opinion of his captaincy would be different. For someone rated so highly as a captain Imran only won 1 series away from the subcontinent against England in '87. Sobers' record as a captain wasn't bad, he had 9 wins, 10 loss and 20 draws out of 39 matches while Imran had 14-8-26 record. If we are to use away record which is a true test of a captain Sobers had 7-7-5 record and Imran has 5-6-15 record.

Emmm dude.....did you watch the 1992 world cup? Imran was injured in the initial part and was not even playing when Pakistan lost to WI and Eng.

Interesting analysis of his captaincy. Let's take a closer look. He lost the first series to England very narrowly in 1982. After that Pakistan beat India in India, SL (a minnow then) in SL, England in England. Almost beat the WI in WI. Not to mention Pakistan was the first team to beat WI in a test match at WI home in 10 years. The only team that he lost to after that was Australia in 89 I think. Never once lost a series to the WI despite playing them 3 times over his career as captain. Made Pakistan a world force in cricket. Now can we have Sobers's captaincy in detail?

 

[Sanz]

Actually Imran's batting average is only 1.61 runs higher compared to other top order batsman of his era. While there is no doubt about his bowling, the bowling average of fast bowlers of that era was 28.55 which is 5.74 more then Imran.

Sobers averaged 22.36 runs higher then a top order batsman of his time. His bowling average is also comparable to that era as its only 2.85 higher.

Looking at the Era Average for Spinners :- Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Era Average - 32.71, SR 88.9 ER = 2.22
Sobers - 34.03, SR 91.9, ER - 2.22

Seems consistent with the Era.