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Glenn Mcgrath or Malcolm Marshall?

Mcgrath vs Marshall


  • Total voters
    57
  • Poll closed .
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I cannot see an argument, statistical or not, to pick McGrath over Marshall. Let us leave the stats behind and assume they are equal, though most objective observers should give Marshall an edge. Let us examine them as bowlers.

McGrath's main bowling pros were his height, accuracy and cricketing brain. He relied less on swing and more on subtle variations through cutting across the seam and extracting bounce from the wicket to bowl in the trouble corridor for the batsman, usually around off stump. He was relentless in probing the batman for his weaknesses and giving away nothing. Even on flat wickets, his exceptionally tight line meant batsmen were never free to score runs and were usually kept on a leash.

Marshall was different and had a bigger bag of tricks. His lack of height, rather than being a disadvantage, allowed him to skid the ball and make him even more uncomfortable to face. Skidding the ball meant that, unlike a lot of bowlers, he could be successful on all types of surfaces without relying on the pitch's bounce. Like McGrath, he had a fantastic cricketing brain, and was able to spot batsmen's weaknesses very quickly, and had all the tools to exploit them. He was a master of swing, seam, cutters, with a sharp yorker and a nasty bouncer. When swing was not an option, he could just adjust his bowling completely to bowl a tight line with cutters as he did so magnificently in Sydney 88 on a spinner pitch.

Both had terrific all-round records and were rarely if ever dominated in their careers. But the key difference between them for me is the intimidation factor i.e., pace. Marshall was express pace for most of his career, while McGrath was fast-medium at best. Now granted, pace is not everything, and for the vast majority of the time, they were likely be equally succesful in taking wickets. But I do think there are a very few occasions when pure pace can produce results on a flat wicket that metronomic line and length cannot. Marshall showed this ability to create fear in the batsmen on unresponsive wickets through speed in India 83 and in Adelaide in 84 when the ball was coming up to knee's height.

That to me is the crucial difference between the two. I mean, logically speaking, if you have two worldclass bowlers with near equal records, why would you not choose the one with more pace and variety? Surely he will be able to handle most situations a bowler faced slightly more effectively, no? Pace in skillful hands is always an asset. Again, the difference is small but notable.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
so basically saying the same thing that I mentioned earlier

"Marshall could do everything that McGrath could and do it 10 mph quicker" :ph34r:
 

Top_Cat

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Marshall was different and had a bigger bag of tricks. His lack of height, rather than being a disadvantage, allowed him to skid the ball and make him even more uncomfortable to face. Skidding the ball meant that, unlike a lot of bowlers, he could be successful on all types of surfaces without relying on the pitch's bounce.
By the same token, you could argue McG could extract useful bounce on pitches where others could not.

Like McGrath, he had a fantastic cricketing brain, and was able to spot batsmen's weaknesses very quickly, and had all the tools to exploit them. He was a master of swing, seam, cutters, with a sharp yorker and a nasty bouncer. When swing was not an option, he could just adjust his bowling completely to bowl a tight line with cutters as he did so magnificently in Sydney 88 on a spinner pitch.
Yes but not as tight as McG did bowl.

Both had terrific all-round records and were rarely if ever dominated in their careers. But the key difference between them for me is the intimidation factor i.e., pace. Marshall was express pace for most of his career, while McGrath was fast-medium at best.
Both of these points are debateable, though. Marshall's pace did noticeably drop off for the last few years of his career and McG could still crank it up past 140Km/h until fairly late in his career too but that's sorta irrelevent. The point is that they both bowled to the conditions. Marshall had a few more useful pitches to work with so could let fly more often, McG had to throttle back on the flatter decks he bowled on. Marshall at his quickest was obviously consistently faster but it's not as big a factor as I reckon you're suggesting it is.

That to me is the crucial difference between the two. I mean, logically speaking, if you have two worldclass bowlers with near equal records, why would you not choose the one with more pace and variety? Surely he will be able to handle most situations a bowler faced slightly more effectively, no? Pace in skillful hands is always an asset. Again, the difference is small but notable.
It depends. Support, team balance, conditions, etc. All of these were huge factors on how both were able to bowl independent of their abilities. It also renders the whole 'Marshall could do everything McG did but 10Km/h quicker' nonsensical. Marshall just wasn't as consistently accurate as McG was but then that wasn't what he was going for. McG definitely could zip the ball miles but, again, he wasn't going for that sort of stuff every ball. Entirely different teams = entirely different contexts.

There is no metric which definitely separates the two, in my view. The stats collected or differences between them certainly aren't good enough to make that argument even remotely convincingly.
 

benchmark00

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Who cares?

It's like saying what's better: fried chicken or hot chix?

They're both awesome, greasy and bowl well...

Or something.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
lol, it was actually "Lillee could do everything that McGrath could and do it 10 miles quicker". This was one of Ian Chappell's quotes in selecting Lillee for the AT XI :p......

edit: I must say that it sounds impressive doesn't it?
 

kyear2

International Coach
I cannot see an argument, statistical or not, to pick McGrath over Marshall. Let us leave the stats behind and assume they are equal, though most objective observers should give Marshall an edge. Let us examine them as bowlers.

McGrath's main bowling pros were his height, accuracy and cricketing brain. He relied less on swing and more on subtle variations through cutting across the seam and extracting bounce from the wicket to bowl in the trouble corridor for the batsman, usually around off stump. He was relentless in probing the batman for his weaknesses and giving away nothing. Even on flat wickets, his exceptionally tight line meant batsmen were never free to score runs and were usually kept on a leash.

Marshall was different and had a bigger bag of tricks. His lack of height, rather than being a disadvantage, allowed him to skid the ball and make him even more uncomfortable to face. Skidding the ball meant that, unlike a lot of bowlers, he could be successful on all types of surfaces without relying on the pitch's bounce. Like McGrath, he had a fantastic cricketing brain, and was able to spot batsmen's weaknesses very quickly, and had all the tools to exploit them. He was a master of swing, seam, cutters, with a sharp yorker and a nasty bouncer. When swing was not an option, he could just adjust his bowling completely to bowl a tight line with cutters as he did so magnificently in Sydney 88 on a spinner pitch.

Both had terrific all-round records and were rarely if ever dominated in their careers. But the key difference between them for me is the intimidation factor i.e., pace. Marshall was express pace for most of his career, while McGrath was fast-medium at best. Now granted, pace is not everything, and for the vast majority of the time, they were likely be equally succesful in taking wickets. But I do think there are a very few occasions when pure pace can produce results on a flat wicket that metronomic line and length cannot. Marshall showed this ability to create fear in the batsmen on unresponsive wickets through speed in India 83 and in Adelaide in 84 when the ball was coming up to knee's height.

That to me is the crucial difference between the two. I mean, logically speaking, if you have two worldclass bowlers with near equal records, why would you not choose the one with more pace and variety? Surely he will be able to handle most situations a bowler faced slightly more effectively, no? Pace in skillful hands is always an asset. Again, the difference is small but notable.
Very well articulated. All things being equal, One would go with the guy with the extra yard of pace. They were both great, but Mcgrath lacked variety and that frightful speed that put the fear of god into batsmen who faced him. But in the 1-2 in my book.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Very well articulated. All things being equal, One would go with the guy with the extra yard of pace. They were both great, but Mcgrath lacked variety and that frightful speed that put the fear of god into batsmen who faced him. But in the 1-2 in my book.

Was Marshall really that quick?

From what I have seen of him on youtube, he may have been in the early-mid 140s in his peak, but I don't think anyone could say with certainty that he got near 150 km/h.
 

Burgey

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Was Marshall really that quick?

From what I have seen of him on youtube, he may have been in the early-mid 140s in his peak, but I don't think anyone could say with certainty that he got near 150 km/h.
Was rated the fastest inthe world when he came along, iirc.

As for the poll, the answer is obvioulsy Trent Copeland.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Was Marshall really that quick?

From what I have seen of him on youtube, he may have been in the early-mid 140s in his peak, but I don't think anyone could say with certainty that he got near 150 km/h.
Was fast enough to knock Gavaskar's bat out of his hands (wish I could see that clip). That says a lot for me. But certainly faster than McGrath.
 

bagapath

International Captain
....Let us examine them as bowlers.
.......
Well said. I chose Marshall because he would take wickets one over ahead of McGrath without giving any extra runs. He is the rarest of the rare kind, that did not compromise on accuracy for the sake of attacking. His strike rate was much lower and so was his average, in comparison with any fast bowler with 200+ wickets, including McGrath.

Also, in a team full of hungry lions - he played all his career with two other, sometimes three, giants bowling with him - getting a piece of flesh must have been quite a struggle. But from 1983 onwards, when he took the new ball for the first time in Kanpur and reduced India to 4 wickets for nothing much, he was the greatest leader of the greatest pace attack of all time. Only his unparalleled genius could reduce champions like Holding, Garner, Walsh and Bishop (and good pacers like Patterson) to glorified supporting acts. Until Ambrose took over the mantle from him in 1990, the West Indian attack had a clear leader and that was Macko. If Marshall and McGrath were to bowl together in a team, am sure Marshall would be the primus inter pares there as well. The difference between them is marginal; but it is clear that he is ahead of Pigeon in every aspect of pace bowling by a narrow, teeny wheeny margin.
 
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G.I.Joe

International Coach
Yeah, that Mahela Jayawardene was really a great batsman as the numbers seem to suggest. He did, after all, bat in the most bowler friendly era of all time. WAG.


Oops, wrong thread. :whistling
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Regardless of the margin, Statistically Mcgrath is inferior to Marshall in almost every category, you still picked Mcgrath in this poll. That's subjectivity and not a statistical fact. When you yourself are not objective So don't go on accusing others of being subjective.
There is no "regardless of margin" because the margin is what creates doubt because they played in different eras under different conditions. Hence, it is too close to say that the difference between their playing conditions couldn't be the difference.

The difference between Amarnath and Sehwag has little to do with era; they are that far apart. It's clear you don't appreciate what the terms subjective or objective mean; or have a radically different interpretation of them than me. But that's fine, I am done pointing out the obvious.


The Pakistan attack in the 04 series was pretty ordinary with the likes of Sami, Fazle Akbar, and a brand new Umar Gul in the attack along with Shoaib Akhtar. I doubt you can call any of those bowlers good (Shabbir wasn't really the same after his action was reported). Shoaib was the only good bowler in that attack and since Shoaib was never good at swinging the new ball or seaming it like Asif, his bowling was almost totally blunted by the pitches.

Which is why comparing him with sehwag is not a stretch. He failed in some conditions and Sehwag failed in some conditions. Maybe we can say that Amarnath performed better when conditions were tough for the team something like a Michael Bevan for ODIs. Can't say the same about Sehwag.
I can see what you mean, but your point goes for both. Amarnath played the WIndies terrifically in conditions that suited them. And played them poorly in conditions that suited him. He played a pack of bowlers far better than he played a lone-wolf - e.g. Hadlee. Therefore any statements that try to put him definitively as a great player of pace are misjudged IMO. He played some great innings, that's it. But so has Sehwag. And the difference between them as batsmen is huge; it does not make the 80s attack any closer to the 00s - which was the original discussion, before this digression.
 
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