Australia (1995-2007) Vs. West Indies (1974-1986)?

[smash84]

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Oh yeah man that's not bowler friendly in anyways. I don't know if people like you don't know stats at all or that you actually know it and still childishly ignore it because it doesn't benefit you.

Dude your condescending tone and adhominem attacks probably point out your own insecurities. No need to get so worked up. Can you please point out the point of putting those stats in there? How exactly do they prove anything that you are saying?

Like I said so before, people like you seem to suffer from the delusion that just because I say so it makes it so

Yeah but you seem to be suffering from the same disease since you don't point out the depth that Australia has. They actually pointed out the depth of WI bowling in reserve. Which bowlers were there in reserve during 95-07 can you please point them out. Stuart McGill was one very good one, Stuart Clarke was another good one but were they as good as the WI backups. Funny you take the names of Bolinger and CO who were not really backups in the time of McGrath and Warne.

 

[BlazeDragon]

Dude your condescending tone and adhominem attacks probably point out your own insecurities. No need to get so worked up. Can you please point out the point of putting those stats in there? How exactly do they prove anything that you are saying?

How doesn't it prove anything? Your friends trying to argue that that Pakistani pitches were not a bowler friendly back then but the stats there shows exactly how wrong they were.

Yeah but you seem to be suffering from the same disease since you don't point out the depth that Australia has. They actually pointed out the depth of WI bowling in reserve. Which bowlers were there in reserve during 95-07 can you please point them out. Stuart McGill was one very good one, Stuart Clarke was another good one but were they as good as the WI backups. Funny you take the names of Bolinger and CO who were not really backups in the time of McGrath and Warne.

I really don't wanna hear that from you above all. Most of your posts in this thread has been agreeing with people that said WI no matter whatever reason they gave as to why. You have pretty much completely ignored any statistics provided in this thread that doesn't favor you and not just by me. In pretty much all your post you have only focused on the 2 things and both of which goes in favor of WI, series loss and bowling. Even another poster who wasn't even debating about this thought your arguments were one-sided.

I mentioned Bolinger and CO because they were the ones playing and improving their first-class record in the time of Mcgrath and Warne which the reason they got the international spot first when they retired. Your friends were trying to suggest that Australia were a hopeless bunch without Mcgrath and Warne and I was pointing out to them about how absurd that was.

As for back ups, its quite debatable as to who's back ups were better but your friend's post were giving the impression that WI back up were the only impressive ones.

 

[smash84]

How doesn't it prove anything? Your friends trying to argue that that Pakistani pitches were not a bowler friendly back then but the stats there shows exactly how wrong they were.

You just posted a list of totals and average scores in an innings. From what I can see in that list is that some of the highest average scores are there in the 80s. I really don't know what else to conclude from that list. Can you please shed some more light on the purpose of those stats. I didn't go beyond the first page but if anything this seems to me to be proving sub shakerz right that the 80s was a graveyard for fast bowlers as far as Pakistan is concerned since the average scores are so high for the matches in the 80s.

I mentioned Bolinger and CO because they were the ones playing and improving their first-class record in the time of Mcgrath and Warne which the reason they got the international spot first when they retired. Your friends were trying to suggest that Australia were a hopeless bunch without Mcgrath and Warne and I was pointing out to them about how absurd that was.

As for back ups, its quite debatable as to who's back ups were better but your friend's post were giving the impression that WI back up were the only impressive ones.

Dude in terms of depth we are talking about the reserve bench strength so how do Bollinger and Co feature in the 95-07 period. Bollinger must have been 20 years old in 07 when McWarne retired so how did he be part of the reserve? I mentioned two good reserve bowlers in stuart clarke and macgill but a bowling squad of McGrath, Warne, Lee, Gillespie, MacGill, Clarke, although fantastic, does not seem as good to me as Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft, Clark, Walsh, Ambrose except in the spin department where Aus >>>> WI

And no "my friend's" post did not give me the impression that WI were the only ones with good backups. If Australia did not have good backups they would never have dominated for so long as they did. Of course they had good backups but were their bowling backups as good as the WI? Not IMO.

 

[subshakerz]

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Oh yeah man that's not bowler friendly in anyways. I don't know if people like you don't know stats at all or that you actually know it and still childishly ignore it because it doesn't benefit you.

Um, how does a list of highest innings prove anything about the overall batting conditions in the decade? By the way, I'm not suggesting that the 2000s Pakistan was more bowling-friendly. I simply said that in the 80s it was not. Perhaps you can look at percentage of drawn tests?

Like I said so before, people like you seem to suffer from the delusion that just because I say so it makes it so

Just another ad hominem attack.

Just because they were not as good as Mcgrath means they were mediocre? If you think the talent of the Aussie group that low that without the the likes of Mcgrath the are a bunch of minnow then I have seriously wasted my time here trying to argue with someone like you.

You again seem to be missing my point. I gave you two examples of Australia missing their frontline paceman, McGrath, and their results suffering due to that. Please bring me such an example for the WI. Never suggested that without McGrath they are minnows, just that WI had the quality pacemen backup (like Sylvester Clarke, Wayne Daniels, Patt Patterson, Tong Gray, etc.) proving they didn't depend on 1-2 key bowlers like Australia.

The likes of Johnson, Bollinger etc are still a class apart from a good amount of bowler in the business today.

Irrelevant as they played after McWarne's retirement. Australia wouldn't be a no.4 team in the world if they were as good as you suggest.

Windies suffered 5x worse from the retirements of their great bowlers than Aus did with theirs.

Croft and Roberts retired in the early 80s and WI kept on winning. Holding and Garner retired in 86 and WI remained undefeated for 9 years. Marshall retired in 91 and WI still didn't lose a series for another 4 years.

On the other hand, McWarne retired in 2007, and since then Australia have lost to India (twice), England (twice) and South Africa. So who suffered more?

 

[subshakerz]

I am just gonna come and flat out say it, Mcgrath and Warne were better than everybody the WI attack had to offer. I would actually be willing to go on a statistical argument if you want me to which is something don't seem to know how to.

Ok, I'll take you up on that. Prove to me, statistically, that Warne was better than Malcolm Marshall.

 

[kyear2]

I am just gonna come and flat out say it, Mcgrath and Warne were better than everybody the WI attack had to offer. I would actually be willing to go on a statistical argument if you want me to which is something don't seem to know how to.

Glenn was a Great bowler, and possibly top five all time. Malcolm Marshall by all measure and consensus on this forum, is The Greatest Fast Bolwer of All Time. An average below 21, and strike rate of 47, had all the tools, ferocious pace, prodigious swing, skiddy, deadly bounce. Under-rated accuatcy who could do every thing Mcgrath could do at 10mph faster. He was never dominated and was a champion.

Warne is the greatest spinner of all time and a great match winner, but on a last day pitch few could match the match winning ability of Curtly Ambrose in his prime. His match winning spells are legendary and with him the Windies were never out of a match.

Mcgrath and Warne were Greats, but lets not disrespect the opponents just because of who you like. We on this forum voted Marshall one of the Five Greastest cricketers of All-Time and he joined Warne in Cricinfo's All Time XI.

We all have our preferences, but we have too see things from both sides and acknowledge and respect history.

 

[subshakerz]

@ Brett Lee being a weak link. You seem to put every WI bowler of that era on the same class as the likes of Marshall/Ambrose.

If your standards are that high then other than Viv that Windies batting of that era were some the the most mediocre batsman of all time.

Yeah, Garner, Marshall, Croft, Roberts, Holding, Walsh, Bishop and Ambrose were all worldclass bowlers. Brett Lee, except for his first few tests and a brief period in 2007, was not.

 

[robelinda]

No way Brett Lee is anything but an honest trier at test level. Should be mentioned nowhere near even the 4th string WI attack of the 80's. The above post was spot on.

 

[BlazeDragon]

You just posted a list of totals and average scores in an innings. From what I can see in that list is that some of the highest average scores are there in the 80s. I really don't know what else to conclude from that list. Can you please shed some more light on the purpose of those stats. I didn't go beyond the first page but if anything this seems to me to be proving sub shakerz right that the 80s was a graveyard for fast bowlers as far as Pakistan is concerned since the average scores are so high for the matches in the 80s.

Seriously do you have eyesight problems or something? Even the highest total doesn't even go further than 329. The lowest total is as low as 19. How exactly is that not bowler friendly pitches?

Read other posts before posting. First I posted that it was bowler friendly game during the WI era. Then one of your friends replied by saying Pakistan didn't have bowler friendly pitches back in the days. Then I gave them the statistics showing as to why he is wrong on that. Just because it was less bowler friendly than all the other grounds doesn't make it not bowler friendly. The scores there are a joke compared to the Aus era scores. Unless you are saying that the batsman of Aus era are just naturally tougher so they score more.

Dude in terms of depth we are talking about the reserve bench strength so how do Bollinger and Co feature in the 95-07 period. Bollinger must have been 20 years old in 07 when McWarne retired so how did he be part of the reserve? I mentioned two good reserve bowlers in stuart clarke and macgill but a bowling squad of McGrath, Warne, Lee, Gillespie, MacGill, Clarke, although fantastic, does not seem as good to me as Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft, Clark, Walsh, Ambrose except in the spin department where Aus >>>> WI

WTF are you talking about? Bollinger is 30 years old right now more than half is career is already over. At least think before randomly blabbering man.

Well it would be require a miracle for it to "seem" to you that about anything of the Aus bowling being better since you seem you already have your mind made up and ignore every stat that me or anybody else throws at you.

And no "my friend's" post did not give me the impression that WI were the only ones with good backups. If Australia did not have good backups they would never have dominated for so long as they did. Of course they had good backups but were their bowling backups as good as the WI? Not IMO.

I am not surprised that it didn't give YOU the impression. Since your friend only cared enough to brag about how great the WI back up was logically I came to the conclusion he was biased towards it.

 

[smash84]

Seriously do you have eyesight problems or something? Even the highest total doesn't even go further than 329. The lowest total is as low as 19. How exactly is that not bowler friendly pitches?

dude go and take a look again at your stats. That 329 is the highest score that Inzi made against NZ not the highest total made by a team in Pakistan. Pakistan scored 675 runs.....dude first learn to read stats yourself and then talk about them. maybe I am not the one with eye sight problems but you are

 

[BlazeDragon]

Ok, I'll take you up on that. Prove to me, statistically, that Warne was better than Malcolm Marshall.

Its late and I gotta go sleep. But I will take you up on that tomorrow.

 

[BlazeDragon]

dude go and take a look again at your stats. That 329 is the highest score that Inzi made against NZ not the highest total made by a team in Pakistan. Pakistan scored 675 runs.....dude first learn to read stats yourself and then talk about them. maybe I am not the one with eye sight problems but you are

Okay my mistake, I copied and pasted the wrong link. I'll come back with the right one tomorrow.

But your Bollinger age mistake was just as worse to be honest.

 

[Burgey]

Exactly they seem to use stats only when it works to their advantage.

You could pretty much say that if Brett Lee at his peak played in those era he could put a whole lot of the batsman on a body bag and trouble them even more than the likes of Marshall/Walsh etc. You just can't prove that with his statistical record.

I don't think Lee is anywhere the bowler Marshall or Walsh was - nothing like it. I would say, however, he'd be perfectly capable of fulfilling the same sort of role someone like Patrick Paterson did for the Windies.

 

[Darth018]

Lee would be probably be unstoppable if he played with the 80's.

 

[Top_Cat]

Lee with an 80's mullet = lawl.

 

[GotSpin]

lets be honest. Not even McGrath is close to Walsh. What a legend

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think Lee is anywhere the bowler Marshall or Walsh was - nothing like it. I would say, however, he'd be perfectly capable of fulfilling the same sort of role someone like Patrick Paterson did for the Windies.

I agree in the similarity between Patterson and Lee. But the crucial difference is that Lee was a first-choice for the Aussie attack, whereas Patterson was distinctly a back-up bowler for the main attack of Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop. That shows the difference between depth.

 

[Slifer]

Subs and friends tbh I think that Blaze character has to be a wind up. WI have Walsh, Amby, MM, Garner, Roberts, Bishop, Holding, who all averaged around 25 and struck around 55. And Amby and Walsh in particular played up until 2000 (when bowling conditions were supposedly tougher).

Oz in comparison has McGrath and Warne (as greats). Even if for the sake of arguments we consider Mcgrath and Warne better than all the WI bowlers (i dont believe that for a minute) the fact is they are all in a similar ball part as greats.


Ps Im waiting on this statistical argument that proves that Warne is greater than MM.

 

[Slifer]

Expected no better from the likes of you.

Your right its so ludicrous and laughable. How foolish of us to think that Statistics > Your fanboyish beliefs.

Bring on the stats then 7 sub 25 sub 55 sr bowlers vs 2. Whenever ur ready

And ps im a child of the 70s u might not like my argument or my POV but keep ur condescending tone to a minimum, thats not cool at all.

 

[Burgey]

I agree in the similarity between Patterson and Lee. But the crucial difference is that Lee was a first-choice for the Aussie attack, whereas Patterson was distinctly a back-up bowler for the main attack of Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop. That shows the difference between depth.

Gillespie was as good a bowler as Bishop, or very close.

Both careers sadly marred by injuries too. Bishop especially

Edit: not that that's the point, I'm just saying.

I don't think you could reasonably say australia's pace bowling ever had the depth of the WI.