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****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
You cannot be serious - there is quite a bit of difference in the way he played back then and now, nowadays he is more of a nudger and more of an accumulator rather than the attacking player he used to be in the 90s - yes, he was never very aggressive, but turned it on more than he does these days and was more flamboyant those days

The major difference is against the spinners I'd say. He used to use his feet against them a LOT more . In fact, I'd say the tendulkar of the 90s was a better player of spin bowling than lara , but due to him regressing quite a bit in the 2000s, I'd put him below Lara overall against the spinners.
Nah.. he attacked the spinners when he saw fit. As I said, I have seen him score 80 odd in the Windies in 97 off something like 250 or 300 balls.. He s still playing those attacking shots but he just looks less likely to get out to them :) May be an improvement in his own battng, maybe due to pitches, maybe due to bowling standards regressing. Personally, while all 3 play a part, I think it is mostly due to him being sure of his exact role in the batting line up unlikes the early and mid 90s, esp. away from home. He knows what to expect from every other guy in the lineup and is able to bat in the way he wants to, that day. :)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
No the issue, is Lara did bat way beyond what an average captain would've considered as a safe total on that pitch.

Let's not kid ourselves on that.

I am not suggesting Tendulkar had a realistic chance of getting a 400 there, rather, pointing out the fallacy in excluding notouts because in one case, it was completely out of control of one batsman, and in the latter in his control (Lara's)

FTR, I am "NOT REDUCING" anything from that 400... I watched that game live, and enjoyed every moment of it. It meant to Lara a lot, it meant to Windies as well, after a disappointing series till then.
What about Sydney 2004 and SAchin's 248? Didn't India bat on waaaaay beyond the safe target? We scored 700+ FFS. And that game was drawn too. Sachin was not captain then but Saurav didn't pull the plug, did he? As I said, both India and West Indies (and Pakistan and Sri Lanka to an extent) are very much personality driven and I doubt any of those sides will declare when a player is on the verge of milestone such as that.


These are futile arguments anyway, because I think not-outs are just that. They are not opportunities robbed from you neither are they average boosters.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
Well again it is subjective. Lara was removed by Donald 6 times in 20 innings, while Tendulkar was removed by Donald 5 times in 20 innings. Not much difference there. If you remember Donald having Lara for breakfast in the 99 series, then you would also remember Lara also going after Donald a lot in the same series (including hitting him four or five boundaries and six in 2 overs). In one of the innings I vaguely remember Donald was actually taken off the attack after Lara had scored 30 runs from just 2 of his overs. He had his revenge though by coming back and getting Lara's wicket. This was Test match cricket. If actual Player vs Player stats are taken I would be surprised if Lara has scored lesser runs just off Donald's bowling in Test cricket than Tendulkar.

Lara might have lacked a big 100 against Donald, but at the end of the day he scored more runs, at a higher average, and at a better strike-rate than Tendulkar in the matches that Donald played in. He was also slightly more consistent (7 50+ scores in 20 innings compared to Tendulkar's 5 50+ scores in 20 innings against Donald). That is enough (in addition to him smashing Donald all over in Test match cricket much more than Tendulkar did) for me to conclude Lara was slightly better against Donald.

Having said that, neither of them were really stellar to my eyes against Donald. And their records do show that. It really is subjective. Donald himself rates Tendulkar as better.

Lara's was a high-risk attack approach against Donald, while Tendulkar's was a steady approach, so I would not be surprised if Lara looked like a jumping-jack. Yes, looks-wise, Tendulkar looked more solid but at the same time (to my eyes) Lara punished Donald far more than what Tendulkar did.
Donald had the edge over Lara almost every time in that 5-test series. As far as smashing Donald all over the park goes, there haven't been many better than that scintillating 169 at cape town . ( remember atleast 10 boundaries of Donald's bowling in that innings ).

Sachin's average vs SA in the matches that Donald played js slightly lower more because of Cronje ( and others ) , not necessarily of Donald. Pretty sure that with knocks like that 169 ( where the bowler he got most runs off was Donald ), 111 ( at Joburg ), 97 at Mumbai, he scored more runs vs Donald than Lara did . Lara usually got out early to Donald or would score a few boundaries and then Donald would have his say by getting him out.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Well again it is subjective. Lara was removed by Donald 6 times in 20 innings, while Tendulkar was removed by Donald 5 times in 20 innings. Not much difference there. If you remember Donald having Lara for breakfast in the 99 series, then you would also remember Lara also going after Donald a lot in the same series (including hitting him four or five boundaries and six in 2 overs). In one of the innings I vaguely remember Donald was actually taken off the attack after Lara had scored 30 runs from just 2 of his overs. He had his revenge though by coming back and getting Lara's wicket. This was Test match cricket. If actual Player vs Player stats are taken I would be surprised if Lara has scored lesser runs just off Donald's bowling in Test cricket than Tendulkar.

Lara might have lacked a big 100 against Donald, but at the end of the day he scored more runs, at a higher average, and at a better strike-rate than Tendulkar in the matches that Donald played in. He was also slightly more consistent (7 50+ scores in 20 innings compared to Tendulkar's 5 50+ scores in 20 innings against Donald). That is enough (in addition to him smashing Donald all over in Test match cricket much more than Tendulkar did) for me to conclude Lara was slightly better against Donald.

Having said that, neither of them were really stellar to my eyes against Donald. And their records do show that. It really is subjective. Donald himself rates Tendulkar as better.

Lara's was a high-risk attack approach against Donald, while Tendulkar's was a steady approach, so I would not be surprised if Lara looked like a jumping-jack. Yes, looks-wise, Tendulkar looked more solid but at the same time (to my eyes) Lara punished Donald far more than what Tendulkar did.

Regarding Waqar, Lara had a decent series with him in 92-93 (216 runs @ 42.3) when Waqar was at his peak, and they actually had great duels in that series. I do remember him and Phil Simmons going after Waqar on a bowler friendly pitch in Barbados in that series. Waqar went for a lot in that Test match.

In any case Waqar himself rated Lara better than Tendulkar (simply because he never bowled to Sachin in Test cricket at his peak).
YouTube - ‪WAQAR YOUNIS ON SIR VIV, BRIAN LARA AND SACHIN TENDULKAR‬‏

Both had very different approaches when playing pace bowling, especially great pace bowlers. Tendulkar's approach was Gavaskarish (steady, see off the good deliveries and attack the bad ones), while Lara was more Richardsish (more attack than defence).

The difference was Tendulkar was much better stroke-player than Gavaskar, so could score runs easily without taking risks, while Lara was not as good at attacking at Richards, and consequently appeared very vulnerable.

To me, both were pretty average against pace. When I say pace, I mean short-pitched pace bowling at the body. Between the two, Lara was clearly better though. Again, since I define better means scoring more runs against that kind of bowling.

Lara took more risks but that was his attitude rather than a technical limitation. All the below videos are decent examples. The deliveries that Lara hooked-pulled-cut ranged from 140 Kmph to 150+ Kmph. Because of his propensity to attack, he might have gotten into a tangle, especially on a pitch with variable bounce, like he did the in the first video below, but he certainly didn't look "hurried" while playing the pull shots at deliveries clocking 150+ Kph.

YouTube - ‪Brian Lara vs Brett Lee 2nd test 2003 Trinidad‬‏

YouTube - ‪RECORD RUN CHASE BY WESTINDIES VS AUSTRALIA 4TH TEST AT ANTIGUA MAY 2003‬‏
(from 7:00 to 13:32 , the square-cut 6 off Lee to begin the innings was pretty good).


My opinions aren't made in stone. I don't have anything against either Lara or Tendulkar. So if you can find Tendulkar videos where he managed to pull-hook-cut short-pitched bowling of that serious pace in Test cricket more frequently than Lara, please do let me know, I will change my mind. From my memory, I can't recall him doing so. Did see his 169 and 111 videos again could not find any hook-pull-cut shots off Donald's short pitched deliveries. Tendulkar generally played it safe and rarely took on short pitched bowling at that high pace in Test match cricket.

Statistically or visually I generally found Lara to be slightly better (again in the sense of scoring more runs and being more aggressive) than Tendulkar more often than not against quality pace in Test match cricket. This doesn't mean Tendulkar was useless. It is just that his play was much more defensive, while Lara's was more attacking. To some, that might be better, since it is safer. To me, it is about how many runs you score at the end of the day.

Yes, Lara might have looked more vulnerable than Tendulkar because of his attacking approach but if at the end of the day he, on average, scored many more runs than Tendulkar against quality pace, the appearance of vulnerability really becomes moot to me. But from what I have seen of both, they were quite behind Vivian Richards and Barry Richards in this aspect though. Again just my opinion. At the end, while Tendulkar lacked a stand-out, stellar series against any of the great pace bowlers of their era, Lara salvaged it a bit with his performances against McGrath.
:thumbup1: ...........
 

hang on

State Vice-Captain
the point is, coolkuna, that lara didn't score that many runs against quality pace as you seem to think he did!
so, while visually or aesthetically he might have had the edge over tendulkar, statistically, he didn't.

i put up the stats with the quality pacemen, the quality pacemen plus mcgrath and pollock and then, finally, with the all of the above plus the quality spinners. in earlier comments.

secondly, u don't have to hook to be good against pace. u can avoid that and uppercut over slips if need be. or just leave the balls. there is no hard and fast rule. as long as u can score some runs.

donald rated tendulkar the best batsman he's ever played against. called him a beast, if memory serves.

of course, it is fine to prefer lara over tendulkar but the stats cannot be completely discounted!
 
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coolkuna

Cricket Spectator
Donald had the edge over Lara almost every time in that 5-test series. As far as smashing Donald all over the park goes, there haven't been many better than that scintillating 169 at cape town . ( remember atleast 10 boundaries of Donald's bowling in that innings ).

Sachin's average vs SA in the matches that Donald played js slightly lower more because of Cronje ( and others ) , not necessarily of Donald. Pretty sure that with knocks like that 169 ( where the bowler he got most runs off was Donald ), 111 ( at Joburg ), 97 at Mumbai, he scored more runs vs Donald than Lara did . Lara usually got out early to Donald or would score a few boundaries and then Donald would have his say by getting him out.
Yes Donald most certainly did. Along the same lines Donald did have the edge over Tendulkar in the 97 series (especially with the incoming delivery). Again, at the end of the day, Donald got Lara 6 times in 20 innings and Tendulkar 5 times in 20 innings. Not much difference there. As I said, both looked and fared far less than great against Donald.

If at the end of the day Lara scored more runs than Tendulkar in the same number of innings that they played against Donald, the likelihood of him scoring more runs just against Donald is higher IMO.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
Nah.. he attacked the spinners when he saw fit.
yes, but he did it more back then. Do you remember how his first duels vs both warne and saqlain in tests in India started ? Interestingly both in Chennai.

He went after them in the very first overs he faced ( ended up getting out to them - Of course I don't need to elaborate on what happened in the next innings , do I ? )

He just doesn't attack them as much as he used to.

There is a quite a bit of difference IMO. Just to illustrate the difference in the effect the style of play has , even in recent times - in the 2008 series in SL, he played Murali cautiously, Mendis agressively . He got 57 runs off 66 balls vs Mendis , getting out to him once, got very few runs vs Murali and got out to him twice. Both were bowling pretty well in that series as you know.

Comparing facing Murali himself at different times, in 2008 he was cautious, but when he decided to attack Murali in the Indian second innings of the last test in 2010 in SL, the scenario looked completely different.


As I said, I have seen him score 80 odd in the Windies in 97 off something like 250 or 300 balls.. He s still playing those attacking shots but he just looks less likely to get out to them :) May be an improvement in his own battng, maybe due to pitches, maybe due to bowling standards regressing. Personally, while all 3 play a part, I think it is mostly due to him being sure of his exact role in the batting line up unlikes the early and mid 90s, esp. away from home. He knows what to expect from every other guy in the lineup and is able to bat in the way he wants to, that day. :)
I think its slightly ironic . Earlier he used to play with more freedom with a lesser batting line-up around him , nowadays more restrained with a better line-up . There isn't a major difference in the strike rate per se, but its the method of getting the runs that I'm talking about.
 
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Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Sachin has used the upper cut a lot in recent times against pacers and otherwise he just comes into the line and clips the ball towards fine leg of his body. That is not if he is ducking the short balls.

Hooking and Pulling are not only important against quality pace bowling. There are other ways too.
 
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Blaze 18

Banned
Really?:wacko:

It's not like he has been lumbering along and scoring a lot of runs at a average in the 30's that is just boosting the number of runs stat.

By the same logic you could say that when Sachin was having his little slump in the early 2000's and missed tests due to Elbow injury, Lara's really good form was irrelevant too?
I never said that. And, for the sake of the argument, even if that were the case, I wouldn't rate Tendulkar any less than I do now. I'm not sure how best to explain my position, but I'll give it a go.

Averages and statistics are not all that important as far as I am concerned, especially batting ones. I rate the Dravids and Pontings of this world comfortably below the Laras, Richards and Tendulkars even if they all have comparable averages. I would also say that Tendulkar circa 1998 was a much better batsman than the current Tendulkar, even if the numbers are overwhelmingly in favour of Tendulkar V2. Call me an eccentric **** if you want but that's how I rate players. :D
 

coolkuna

Cricket Spectator
CoolTuna which have been the 5 greatest fast bowlers that you have watched over the years?
That is a tough question. Usual suspects. Marshall, McGrath, Akram, Donald, Imran, Ambrose, Lillee, Andy Roberts in no particular order. I know the count is more than 5 but I can't give up any one.... sorry :). I actually might have missed a few too as I am feeling sleepy :).
 

abmk

State 12th Man
Yes Donald most certainly did. Along the same lines Donald did have the edge over Tendulkar in the 97 series (especially with the incoming delivery).
Seriously? Do you even remember that series properly ?

This is what happened . In Durban, Sachin hit two fours in the cover region and Donald responded with a peach of an incoming delivery to get him bowled. That is the only time Donald got him out in that series.

In the next test, Sachin carted him all over the park at capetown during his 169.

In that series, he got to cronje twice; mcmillan, pollock, donald,kallis each got him out once.

Again, at the end of the day, Donald got Lara 6 times in 20 innings and Tendulkar 5 times in 20 innings. Not much difference there. As I said, both looked and fared far less than great against Donald.
Again, one needs to look at the circumstances. Donald was at his peak and firing in all the series he played vs India with Sachin in it . He got him out twice in the 92 series in SA , once in 96 test series in India, once in 97 test series in SA and once in 2000 in India.

Donald got Lara out once in 92 ( one test ) and five times in the 10 innings in the 5 test series in SA - major ownage if I might add ! So he had Lara 6 times in 12 innings at his peak. In the 2001 series, Donald was close to retiring from tests and nowhere close to his best as he was troubled by injuries

If at the end of the day Lara scored more runs than Tendulkar in the same number of innings that they played against Donald, the likelihood of him scoring more runs just against Donald is higher IMO.
not necessarily, it depends on how they did vs the rest of the bowlers . Both played 20 innings and Lara scored just 23 runs more . Its not like its a significant difference.

Like I said, Sachin quite a bit of % of runs vs Donald in the two centuries he made ( 169 and 111 ). Lara's runs on the other hand were more evenly distributed, if I can put it that way
 
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hang on

State Vice-Captain
Averages and statistics are not all that important as far as I am concerned, especially batting ones. I rate the Dravids and Pontings of this world comfortably below the Laras, Richards and Tendulkars even if they all have comparable averages. I would also say that Tendulkar circa 1998 was a much better batsman than the current Tendulkar, even if the numbers are overwhelmingly in favour of Tendulkar V2. Call me an eccentric **** if you want but that's how I rate players.
i agree that the tendulkar at the turn of the century was better than his current avatar. however, not sure that the statistics show him to be overwhelmingly better now. might be wrong about this.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If I'd been at CW when this thread started I'd have said Lara for this one without much hesitation. I think that realistically the stats are too similar to be of much relevance in making that judgment and my reasons would have been that Lara carried a weak line up for a long time and that his best innings, as opposed to his highest, were nothing short of remarkable.

But looking at it in 2011 I'd go for Tendulkar. What has changed my mind is his longevity, a factor which I see some have rubbished. Any thread with a title like this is a measure of greatness and I just don't see how longevity isn't a factor in that - for a bloke in the 21st century to be batting as well as ever more than 20 years on is incredible, and slightly more so than that 153* of Lara's, which would have been my tipping factor back in the day.
 

Blaze 18

Banned
i agree that the tendulkar at the turn of the century was better than his current avatar. however, not sure that the statistics show him to be overwhelmingly better now. might be wrong about this.
Last year was definitely his best in terms of raw numbers, I'm pretty sure of that.
 

coolkuna

Cricket Spectator
the point is, coolkuna, that lara didn't score that many runs against quality pace as you seem to think he did!
so, while visually or aesthetically he might have had the edge over tendulkar, statistically, he didn't.

i put up the stats with the quality pacemen, the quality pacemen plus mcgrath and pollock and then, finally, with the all of the above plus the quality spinners. in earlier comments.

secondly, u don't have to hook to be good against pace. u can avoid that and uppercut over slips if need be. or just leave the balls. there is no hard and fast rule. as long as u can score some runs.

donald rated tendulkar the best batsman he's ever played against. called him a beast, if memory serves.

of course, it is fine to prefer lara over tendulkar but the stats cannot be completely discounted!
Of course stats do matter, and Lara leads the stats (that matter to me) by being better against McGrath & Donald. I don't rate Pollock in the same league as Donald/McGrath/Akram. Him and Gillespie are just a smidge below. Again, just my personal opinion.

I never rated Lara as super-great against pace. I keep mentioning that he (and Tendulkar) were below Vivian Richards and Barry Ricjhards from what I have seen. Between Lara and Tendulkar, Lara was slightly better than Tendulkar to me. I am not saying everyone should have the same opinion. And please don't say Tendulkar being better than Lara at pace as if it is the Universal Truth. If Donald says Tendulkar is the best, McGrath and Waqar say Lara is the best. To each his own.
 

hang on

State Vice-Captain
Of course stats do matter, and Lara leads the stats (that matter to me) by being better against McGrath & Donald. I don't rate Pollock in the same league as Donald/McGrath/Akram. Him and Gillespie are just a smidge below. Again, just my personal opinion.

I never rated Lara as super-great against pace. I keep mentioning that he (and Tendulkar) were below Vivian Richards and Barry Ricjhards from what I have seen. Between Lara and Tendulkar, Lara was slightly better than Tendulkar to me. I am not saying everyone should have the same opinion. And please don't say Tendulkar being better than Lara at pace as if it is the Universal Truth. If Donald says Tendulkar is the best, McGrath and Waqar say Lara is the best. To each his own.
i haven't said it like it was the universal truth. it is obviously my opinion. however, i must confess that there is a greater element of stats cherrypicking in your analysis than there is in mine. in matches involving the fast men (those acknowledged to be in express category) tendulkar had better stats than lara. if u one were to also chuck in mcgrath and pollock, the preemiment seamers of the past couple of decades, tendulkar still comes out on top.

and i brought up donald's opinion only because u brought up waqar's opinion.

obviously this is only my opinion. and some slightly more complete stats than just 3 conveniently chosen bowlers (for whatever the stats are worth).
 

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