Who should be England's third seamer?

[Furball]

You pick the one that fits the role you want for the 3rd seamer. In order to be a success you first have to know what is expected of you. England will know what role they want the 3rd seamer to play with the ball. Finn and Bresnan offer very different skill sets. It isnt a like for like choice.

Personally I would go with the guy that offers the slightly sharper cutting edge which may be Finn. There is always Swann to tie up an end. I would like England to try and pick their three most penatrative seamers.

Others may want someone more capable of bowling to a plan and regaining contol of situation. As I said, Swann provides that option for me.

Know the plan, define a role, pick a player that fits the role and define success based on how they meet the aims. Id be happy if Finn took 4-5 wickets a Test at 4+ runs per over.

I'm not sure Swann tying up an end is a good strategy against India.

Brilliant couple of posts from you on this matter though, explains perfectly why I think Bresnan is the correct call.

 

[silentstriker]

Others may want someone more capable of bowling to a plan and regaining contol of situation. As I said, Swann provides that option for me.

Don't bet on it. He's the guy India will undoubtedly pick on to attack. Need someone else to pull it back in case someone starts laying into him. India always pick on the spinner whether it's Warne or Krejza or whoever - it may work out for England if India do try and lose wickets but history has shown you can't bank on that so you need another option.

 

[Goughy]

Don't bet on it. He's the guy India will undoubtedly pick on to attack. Need someone else to pull it back in case someone starts laying into him. India always pick on the spinner whether it's Warne or Krejza or whoever - it may work out for England if India do try and lose wickets but history has shown you can't bank on that so you need another option.

England need Swann to be able to bowl long spells. I didnt say that it would be easy but he will have to. England will not be able to blast India for <220 with any great frequency so therefore Swann must bowl long spells to allow the 3 seamers to rotate. With 90 overs in a day, Id guess Swann will be bowling 30 or more of them.

India may go after him which may work in Englands favour but he is traditionally one of Englands most economical bowlers and as a spinner he will bowl long spells.

 

[silentstriker]

But IMO it's important to have a plan B if your main economical bowler plays into the strengths of the opposition. I'd go for a seamer who could bowl long spells - not necessarily 30 overs of course but Swann may be restricted to perhaps 12-15 instead of 30 (not all the time necessarily and he might come out ahead more times than not even if I doubt it but if/when he's getting it, I don't think you can just keep letting him get hit and effectively put yourself behind in that innings).

 

[Furball]

England need Swann to be able to bowl long spells. I didnt say that it would be easy but he will have to. England will not be able to blast India for <220 with any great frequency so therefore Swann must bowl long spells to allow the 3 seamers to rotate. With 90 overs in a day, Id guess Swann will be bowling 30 or more of them.

India may go after him which may work in Englands favour but he is traditionally one of Englands most economical bowlers and as a spinner he will bowl long spells.

Agreed but at the same time England need a backup to the 'here you go Swanny, bowl 20 overs for 20 runs like you did at Melbourne' plan, as he'll have to bowl bloody well to do that.

 

[Goughy]

Agreed but at the same time England need a backup to the 'here you go Swanny, bowl 20 overs for 20 runs like you did at Melbourne' plan, as he'll have to bowl bloody well to do that.

Yeah, I get your point but plan A has to be taking 20 wickets each Test. There is merit to picking a guy that can contibute to as the back-up to plan B (keeping it tight) but it depends on how much you lose from plan A in the process.

I think England have to bowl bloody well to win this series. Bresnan may well be the right choice but Id personally look for the 3 that gave me the most to get 20 wickets.

 

[zaremba]

Probably Finn or Bresnan.

With 4 bowlers you still need to take 20 wickets so everyone has to be able to make big contributions.

Finn has done little wrong-- even if he has bowled mainly at weakish line-ups, Broad looks out of sorts. Finn averages 4+ wickets a test. Broad averages less than 3. It is hard to ask the other 3 guys to regularly take 17 wickets to win a Test.

If not Finn then Bresnan. Can also take wickets but 1 run an over more economical than Finn, and offers something with the bat and can bowl to a plan.

Bresnan is the conservative pick but I dont think batting is important at 9 and, for all his faults, Finn may offer slightly more cutting edge. Flip a coin for me.

It really depends on the strategy England wants. Do they want to be able to keep pushing after the new ball has gone or do they want someone they can throw the ball to when the batsman as scoring freely and can bowl to a field?

Yep, nice post.

Except that IMHO, even at 9, batting does count for quite a lot. I'm pretty much undecided overall.

No Dernbach in the poll btw?

 

[keeper]

I'm glad that England are no longer tempted by the short-term vagaries of form but I do agree that Broad needs to go to County cricket and find some form and success - and above all find out what sort of bowler he should be.

Really insightful comments above about Finn but I'd still go for Bresnan. The England game plan is built around a degree of control in the field and he could provide that. Finn's day will come, I think he's an outstanding talent. Even now, he's 18 months to 2 years younger than when the likes of Darren Gough and Angus Fraser made their debuts.

 

[superkingdave]

Yeah, I'd go Bresnan but I think it's pretty clear England will have head in the sand and stick with Broad

 

[Howe_zat]

Ought to point out that I wouldn't actually have a problem with Broad playing if they stop trying to get him to be some sort of aggressor. Time and time again Broad has shown capability when he pitches it up (and more often than not at first change). Do that, and leave the new-ball aggressor role to Tremlett and I'm all in favour.

The problem seems to be that they'll only do that with Bresnan.

 

[Jacknife]

I've picked Bresnan but of course, he could come back from injury and suffer the same problems as Broad as.
If they were all at their respective bests, I'd go for Broad, I like what he brings to the team and when he bowls well he can run through a top order.
Since he's come back from injury he's obviously searching for the right line and length to bowl and I said at the start of the 1st test, it was a shame he didn't get more County cricket under him because sometimes, international cricket isn't the place. For the record, I don't think he's bowled that bad at all and has been good in spells with little luck, I almost get the impression that he just needs a couple of things to go his way and that will give him confidence.
For Bresnan, it will be seen how he returns from injury and whether he can get back to form with enough overs under his belt for Yorkshire, to be considered for selection.
It's a hard one because I like both Bresnan and Broad but if Broad hasn't found his form before the Indian series, I go Bres, mainly because of what has already been mentioned, he's great at bowling to a plan, which will be key in the series and when he bowled in the Ashes he was the fastest of our seamers, so we don't lose anything in that regard and is as god as Broad with the bat. Also if it gets dry later this summer, he offers reverse swing as well, which could play a factor.

 

[Goughy]

I've picked Bresnan but of course, he could come back from injury and suffer the same problems as Broad as.
If they were all at their respective bests, I'd go for Broad, I like what he brings to the team and when he bowls well he can run through a top order.
Since he's come back from injury he's obviously searching for the right line and length to bowl and I said at the start of the 1st test, it was a shame he didn't get more County cricket under him because sometimes, international cricket isn't the place. For the record, I don't think he's bowled that bad at all and has been good in spells with little luck, I almost get the impression that he just needs a couple of things to go his way and that will give him confidence.
For Bresnan, it will be seen how he returns from injury and whether he can get back to form with enough overs under his belt for Yorkshire, to be considered for selection.
It's a hard one because I like both Bresnan and Broad but if Broad hasn't found his form before the Indian series, I go Bres, mainly because of what has already been mentioned, he's great at bowling to a plan, which will be key in the series and when he bowled in the Ashes he was the fastest of our seamers, so we don't lose anything in that regard and is as god as Broad with the bat. Also if it gets dry later this summer, he offers reverse swing as well, which could play a factor.

I am not a huge fan of Broad but at times his combination of youth, height and ability to hit 90mph seduces me. I have probably written close to as many pro posts as negative over the years.

However, Broad has to now start earning his spot. He is a veteran of 36 Tests (close to 150 internationals across all formats) and he averages north of 35, takes less than 3 wickets a Test, averages a fifer every 12 Tests, and his average has got worse over the last 18 months and not better. He has 5 wickets at 44.40 for Notts this season and I still have issues with his action. He also doesnt seem to have matured into a bowler who is capable of taking advantage of his attributes. After 36 Tests, Broad is still a player with potential. He is now no longer a kid and needs to earn the spot and not have it gifted to him. IMO, he needs to show the selectors that they need him by taking wickets in the CC because they certainly dont owe him.

 

[Kylez]

Onions.

Onions is a wicket taker, but he is a different type of bowler to Tremlett and Anderson which is good for variety.

 

[Jacknife]

I am not a huge fan of Broad but at times his combination of youth, height and ability to hit 90mph seduces me. I have probably written close to as many pro posts as negative over the years.

However, Broad has to now start earning his spot. He is a veteran of
36 Tests (close to 150 internationals across all formats) and he averages north of 35, takes less than 3 wickets a Test, averages a fifer every 12 Tests, and his average has got worse over the last 18 months and not better. He has 5 wickets at 44.40 for Notts this season and I still have issues with his action. He also doesnt seem to have matured into a bowler who is capable of taking advantage of his attributes. After 36 Tests, Broad is still a player with potential. He is now no longer a kid and needs to earn the spot and not have it gifted to him. IMO, he needs to show the selectors that they need him by taking wickets in the CC because they certainly dont owe him.

I agree he does have to start to take wickets but it cannot be forgotten or overlooked, that he is just coming back from back to back serious injuries and like I said, he could have done with more game for Notts but he was still recovering from injury.
The four day game they showed on SKY, that both Swann and Broad played in it was clear in that, he was far from fit because he was bowling between 78-82mph and was way, way below his best and it wasn't really till this Test, he was back to bowling up in the high 80's.

I also agree with what someone else said, about his role in the team and is he clear what England want from him. It would be very interesting, to hear what Andy Flower wants and expects from Broad, as a bowler. Whether he wants him to be a line and length merchant, or a enforcer, or even a bit of both and that's the reason he's having trouble.

 

[Goughy]

It would be very interesting, to hear what Andy Flower wants and expects from Broad, as a bowler. Whether he wants him to be a line and length merchant, or a enforcer, or even a bit of both and that's the reason he's having trouble.

It would. He is at the point in his career where it could go either way. Do England want him to force the batsman to play 6 out of 6 balls or do they want him to run in and bowl 90mph?

 

[keeper]

I also agree with what someone else said, about his role in the team and is he clear what England want from him. It would be very interesting, to hear what Andy Flower wants and expects from Broad, as a bowler. Whether he wants him to be a line and length merchant, or a enforcer, or even a bit of both and that's the reason he's having trouble.

Yes, by far and away the most interesting question. In a team where everything is seemingly planned to the nth detail, what is Broad's role? One of the attractions may be economy as in recent series he hasn't got for that many (his economy was good in Oz for example). I think the bigger picture is that he is still regarded as work in progress, with the endpoint being a bowler who can average 30 odd and bat at 8 or even 7. Trouble is, he's been work in progress for a while now, although it could be argued there was steady improvement until recent injuries.

 

[keeper]

I still have issues with his action.

Interesting. Anything in particular?

 

[zaremba]

Interesting. Anything in particular?

Weak / splayed front arm I'd have thought?

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Bresnan for me but i am biased. I like Finn but as others have said he is so young his time will come and he will get a couple of hundred test wickets. Wouldn't mind Broad but he has to find some form first.

Obviously it depends on Bresnan getting fit and proving his form but i'd go with him ahead of the rest.

 

[Goughy]

Interesting. Anything in particular?

His left arm kind of hoops rather than coming through straight (possibly not as pronounced as before but still there) and the arm does not come through towards the batsman.

What that means is that the body and the right arm has to auto correct. When you have done something thousands of time like Broad has bowled a cricket ball then the body gets pretty good at this autocorrection. When in rhythm and the ball is coming out well then it isnt a massive problem. When slightly off, this issue increases the tendancy to push, pull and drag the ball making it hard to get 2 balls in a row in the same spot let alone 6 in an over.

For someone else who had left arm issues-- see HARMISON, Steve