Let's play psychologist

[benchmark00]

Nah he wasn't dropped because of his age (the whole middle order basically got axed because of that tour), but IIRC it was strongly implied that his age meant he was out of the selection frame in future. Sounds familiar, eh?

I think everyone just assumed he was out of the frame because of his age. Noone thought he could
come back.

What a man.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Which springs up this image in my mind:

Ambrose is a good example of a mentally tough bowler?

Ambrose didn't ignore it...he had to be dragged away by his captain.

Or is that what you meant in the first place?

 

[Son Of Coco]

Ian Bell is an interesting case, early in his career would definitely be a candidate for mentally weak particularly when faced with Australia but it appears he has now matured and gained the mental toughness needed to go with his undoubted talent.

There's a question to be asked though as to whether him becoming 'tougher' coincided too neatly with most of his tormentors retiring. That's solely looking at it from an Aussie point of view though, I'm sure there are other players from elsewhere who also caused him issues. If he's improved against them then maybe you're right.

Bell has scored runs against average sides before though...

 

[Howe_zat]

There's a question to be asked though as to whether it coincided too neatly with most of his tormentors retiring.

It didn't.

 

[Noble One]

Mental demons suddenly disappear when you cease facing Shane Warne, and face up to Xavier Doherty.

 

[vcs]

There's a question to be asked though as to whether it coincided too neatly with most of his tormentors retiring.

Both he and Cook.

 

[Son Of Coco]

It didn't.

Really? I'd need more proof to be honest.

Same with Cook, reckon if you bowl in the right areas to him then you're still in with a show (although you could say the same of any batsman). Bowl anyone a shower of **** and they'll bat with a heap of confidence.

 

[Howe_zat]

To clarify: Bell was beaten in 05 as he was promising but simply not good enough yet. In 06-07 he was actually one of our better batsmen, but it's irrelevant as the team was basically hammered.

Bell's learning curve has very little to do with Australia. The point where he stopped being so frustrating and started living up to what he's capable of came after (finally) being dropped & recalled in 2009.

In fact, watch the series against SA if you want the difference in Bell's set up. In '08 he scored an excellent 199 when the going was good but failed elsewhere. In 2009-10 he still hit a big hundred to set up a win, but in the next match played a five-hour 78 while batting to save the game against Steyn & Morkel in murder mode.

Bit of Ashes-only narrative going on here from you guys, kind of unfair.

Edit: And while we're on the subject, getting out to good bowling wasn't what people found so infruriating about Bell and what made them start calling him mentally weak. The logic is kind of flawed but he got that reputation by repeatedly getting to a good-looking 30 and giving it away.

 

[Daemon]

Is a player 'mentally tough' because he scored a gritty 100 in unfavourable conditions?

It's hard and sometimes a bit daft to judge these sort of things based on how a player performs imo.

 

[akilana]

In fact, watch the series against SA if you want the difference in Bell's set up. In '08 he scored an excellent 199 when the going was good but failed elsewhere. In 2009-10 he still hit a big hundred to set up a win, but in the next match played a five-hour 78 while batting to save the game against Steyn & Morkel in murder mode.

Steyn was hardly in murder mode in the match you're talking about except for one spell to Collingwood. Ya Bell was batting with Colly but Bell didn't get a chance to face the fired-up Steyn. Love how you guys over-hype opposition performance to hype up yours.

 

[Son Of Coco]

To clarify: Bell was beaten in 05 as he was promising but simply not good enough yet. In 06-07 he was actually one of our better batsmen, but it's irrelevant as the team was basically hammered.

Bell's learning curve has very little to do with Australia. The point where he stopped being so frustrating and started living up to what he's capable of came after (finally) being dropped & recalled in 2009.

In fact, watch the series against SA if you want the difference in Bell's set up. In '08 he scored an excellent 199 when the going was good but failed elsewhere. In 2009-10 he played a five-hour 78 while batting to save the game against Steyn & Morkel in murder mode.

Bit of Ashes-only narrative going on here from you guys, kind of unfair.

He did well against SA, you're right, but I guess the 'Ashes-only' narrative comes from hearing about Bell before and then watching him not do too much. It's pretty harsh to judge someone on their struggles against McGrath, Warne and co. But Bell didn't do much against a pretty poor attack in England '09, and then was much better out here last Ashes. The bowling was pretty poor again though, but that's not his fault.

Given Bell has recently played against Australia, South Africa, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka (with two of those series The Ashes) I don't really see the problem with judging him on what I've seen the most of. Bangladesh? Is performing well against them a sign of an improvement in his game? He's done it before. SA - did well. Sri Lanka - is currently going well. Looked better against us this time around, but our bowlers were pretty ordinary.

He's performed against possibly the best bowling attack in the world at the moment (apart from England's), so maybe he has finally got it together.

I'm not sure what he's done so far is an indication of improvement, but I'm sure you've watched him closer than I have. If he continues to go well, and faces a couple of testing attacks like he did in SA, then you're probably right.

 

[Howe_zat]

Steyn was hardly in murder mode in the match you're talking about except for one spell to Collingwood. Ya Bell was batting with Colly but Bell didn't get a chance to face the fired-up Steyn. Love how you guys over-hype opposition performance to hype up yours.

Perhaps I was exaggerating - Colly may have faced the majority of the best stuff - but Bell did a job of keeping out some very good bowling, when his team were against it, and didn't chuck it away. That's what people needed from him, not to "do better against Shane Warne".

 

[benchmark00]

Perhaps I was exaggerating - Colly may have faced the majority of the best stuff - but Bell did a job of keeping out some very good bowling, when his team were against it, and didn't chuck it away. That's what people needed from him, not to "do better against Shane Warne".

But dude, he looks like a troll doll.

 

[Howe_zat]

I guess the Aussies' perception of him is always going to be on the negative because of his run in 05, namely, that he's just not that good. And if that's still your opinion, then fine.

But when England fans talk about his improvement, they're not saying that he doesn't get out to good bowling anymore. He does. And it's not a crime for an international batsman to be beaten by the better player, Bell is not a great of the game and he never will be.

But for years Bell was seen as mentally weak by England fans because he threw it away so often when his team needed him, that he had it in him to be a good batsman but hardly ever went through with it. That's the facet of his game he seems to have overcome. And for a lot of people that ties into mental strength.

 

[benchmark00]

Full sized ftr.

 

[SamSawnoff]

Perhaps I was exaggerating - Colly may have faced the majority of the best stuff - but Bell did a job of keeping out some very good bowling, when his team were against it, and didn't chuck it away. That's what people needed from him, not to "do better against Shane Warne".

It's amazing. I don't even remember Bell being on the field, that's how much of Steyn he must have faced. Colly seemed to be staring down the barrel every over.

Still some of the best quick bowling I've seen for years that spell. Bell's alright these days. It's good that the pressure of being at 3 has been taken off him. He really shouldn't be up the order. I wish Clarke would understand that about himself.

 

[Howe_zat]

Hmm.

 

[benchmark00]

The troll doll has a bigger set of testicles though tbf.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I guess the Aussies' perception of him is always going to be on the negative because of his run in 05, namely, that he's just not that good. And if that's still your opinion, then fine.

But when England fans talk about his improvement, they're not saying that he doesn't get out to good bowling anymore. He does. And it's not a crime for an international batsman to be beaten by the better player, Bell is not a great of the game and he never will be.

But for years Bell was seen as mentally weak by England fans because he threw it away so often when his team needed him, that he had it in him to be a good batsman but hardly ever went through with it. That's the facet of his game he seems to have overcome. And for a lot of people that ties into mental strength.

I'm sure that perception will change if he keeps performing against decent bowling too. I guess I just don't watch players from other teams that much when they're not playing against Australia (and it's accessible). Makes it a bit more difficult to judge.

Unfortunately, the way our guys are going at the moment, I may never see Bell play well against a good bowling attack without the aid of YouTube (whereas if you're English you watch with the aid of a TubeofLube. )

 

[marc71178]

It's amazing. I don't even remember Bell being on the field, that's how much of Steyn he must have faced. Colly seemed to be staring down the barrel every over.

And yet Bell faced more of Steyn than Collingwood did...