Mohinder Amarnath's bravery for India was a lesson for the cricket world

[vcs]

...

A good example of how the judgement is clouded would be the India vs Pakistan series in 2004. How often you hear Sehwag's 309 in Multan was a flat track knock? Very. And how often you hear the same thing about Dravid's 270 in Rawalpindi? Rarely. Pretty much the same attacks (led by Akhtar), same tracks yet one knock keeps getting berated simply because of 'appearances'. Dravid appeared to earn every run, Sehwag simply kept striking away effortlessly.

...

This is such a good point. You are right that people use Sehwag's ridiculous SR in that innings against him to make it a flat track "cashing in" sort of knock and use it to criticize him in a roundabout fashion, ignoring the fact that Tendulkar ground out 194* alongside him striking at 55.

Outswinger, you seem to value proficiency against pace on greentops. What percentage of his games does a batsman have to play on such pitches? Sehwag butchers spin and has put the likes of Murali, Warne and Mendis (back when he was a mystery) to sword, when everyone else was struggling. Is that not an important attribute of batting?

I have heard that Hobbs was considered a better batsman than Bradman on the occasional sticky wickets that were around in that era. But he was nowhere near the Don at scoring fast, and huge, on more true pitches. Overall, it's obviously no contest. Not saying it's the case with Sehwag and Dravid, who are very close as Test batsmen, but the same principle applies. As for Dravid being a match-winner away from home, I have lost count of the number of times a quick Sehwag century (which he usually goes on to convert to a huge score) gives India momentum, impetus and the extra bit of time to get the 20 wickets and enforce a win at home.

Also disagree that Dravid's defensive and solid style of batting makes it easier for the rest of the lineup to play their shots with abandon. I think this is a big myth in cricket. Think about it. You've just come in to bat. Would you rather bat with a guy effortlessly hitting a boundary an over and keeping the scoreboard ticking over, giving you time to play yourself in, turn over the strike and take advantage of a possibly defensive field? Or would you want to play alongside Dravid, who may look impenetrable, but will probably go lengthy periods without scoring or rotating the strike, bringing the field in? On the vast majority of surfaces and conditions, I'd bat alongside Sehwag without hesitation, knowing that there is absolutely no pressure on me even if I take a long time to settle in. Indeed, even Dravid has done this in recent times. Yes, Dravid provides solidity and holds an end up on a pitch with bounce and movement and when everything is in a (fast) bowler's favour, but let's not make light of what Sehwag does when conditions are neutral or slightly in his favour.

EDIT : Ignore the point in the 2nd paragraph about spin, that is irrelevant to the current argument. Just striking it out, didn't want to delete it.

 

[ankitj]

There are about as many good knocks by Sehwag against good pace as Dravid. Debut hundred in SA, hundred in Chennai against McGrath & Co. in 2005, 319 against Styen & Co. etc. And then there are just as many unimpressive innings against good pace bowlers as Dravid has. What Sehwag cannot do however is take his team out of a hole like Dravid which is basically because invariably the opposition is in hole when Sehwag is batting. Extra emphasis on 'invariably'.

In sum, Tendulkar is comfortably the best player of pace bowling in the recent Indian lineup. He has nearly always got a hundred in a series against a good pace attack. Dravid, Laxman and Sehwag have gone dry a few times, while on occasions playing legendary knocks. So these three are pretty much at par for me.

 

[weldone]

Overall as batsmen, Sehwag vs Dravid comparison is an interesting one.

However, on green pitches against top pace bowlers there's no contest. Dravid tops Sehwag easily in those conditions.

In such conditions, Dravid vs Tendulkar might be an interesting comparison (though overall, Tendulkar>Dravid very very easily).

 

[Xuhaib]

Dravid 2002-2006 is one of the best players ever against any attack hell i would even back him to score multiple 100's vs Windies foursome during that period.Dravid for the rest of the career has been merely a good player who often had struggles against high quality attacks.

 

[Xuhaib]

on the subject of Amarnath was the only guy along with Gavaskar who stood up to Imran in 82-83.Imran rates him very highly.

 

[TT Boy]

Dravid 2002-2206 is one of the best players ever against any attack hell i would even back him to score multiple 100's vs windies foursome during that period.dravid for the rest of the career has been a merely a good player who often had struggles against high quality attacks.

 

[hang on]

rather interesting discussion. perhaps if the name of the title were tweaked a bit, more people might join! hell, i might create another thread dealing with the best players of fast bowling.

regarding the secondary topic at hand (dravid as opposed to amarnath's never say duck pluck), i would rate him comfortably behind tendulkar and gavaskar as a player of fast bowling.

of all the players i have seen against fast bowling, this is how i would order them:

chappell
gavaskar
tendulkar
richards
ponting
border
smith
waugh
crowe
gooch
amarnath
lara
inzamam

 

[robelinda]

I hope you mean Robin Smith not Graeme Smith!

 

[Shri]

Lara would be higher in my list. Inzy and Aravinda de SIlva would be right up there too, had so much time to play their shots against fast bowlers. Rohit Sharma looks a bit like Inzy when he plays fast bowlers when in form these days. Hope he makes it big in a few years.

 

[weldone]

rather interesting discussion. perhaps if the name of the title were tweaked a bit, more people might join! hell, i might create another thread dealing with the best players of fast bowling.

regarding the secondary topic at hand (dravid as opposed to amarnath's never say duck pluck), i would rate him comfortably behind tendulkar and gavaskar as a player of fast bowling.

of all the players i have seen against fast bowling, this is how i would order them:

chappell
gavaskar
tendulkar
richards
ponting
border
smith
waugh
crowe
gooch
amarnath
lara
inzamam

Good list (assuming that the Smith is not Graeme)...but is it a list of 'best players of fast bowling' or 'best players of fast bowling on green, bouncy pitches and swingging conditions'?

Also, I'm just curious as to whether you've seen Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock...

 

[hang on]

I hope you mean Robin Smith not Graeme Smith!

very much so!

 

[hang on]

Good list (assuming that the Smith is not Graeme)...but is it a list of 'best players of fast bowling' or 'best players of fast bowling on green, bouncy pitches and swingging conditions'?

Also, I'm just curious as to whether you've seen Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock...

more fast bowling in non flat conditions than swing in green though the two are often not very easy to separate. however, the ones in that list would not fare too badly in the swinging conditions either.

i have seen both barry richards and pollock though the latter was past his prime. both bloody good and should certainly belong in such a list....just difficult to gauge where exactly where especially in the case of barry richards. the top half most probably but whether better than gavaskar and chappell and co.....difficult to say since i don't put that much in store by the super tests.

 

[weldone]

more fast bowling in non flat conditions than swing in green though the two are often not very easy to separate. however, the ones in that list would not fare too badly in the swinging conditions either.

This is an interesting topic.

For example, I personally think Ponting to be among the best players against extreme pace. But I won't put him among the top when it comes to facing swing. And I think just the opposite about Lara.

Obviously, the top 4 players in your list had excellent attacking AND defensive techniques against pace AND swing.

I shall personally include Dravid in the list.

 

[Arjun]

Has there ever been a CW feature on Mohinder Amarnath? If not, it's long overdue. He's the kind of player about whom legends may be told for a long time.

I have seen a special on Jimmy, where they spoke to several former players and officials about his career, his highs, trying times as well as that ill-tempered end to his career, and even the perspective of a selector (Chetan Chauhan) who wanted him in the team at all costs but was alone, as others wanted him out. That special comes on Ten Cricket, but I don't know when repeat telecasts come. It's an interesting feature about one of India's most under-rated cricketers of all time.

 

[Bun]

Has there ever been a CW feature on Mohinder Amarnath? If not, it's long overdue. He's the kind of player about whom legends may be told for a long time.

I have seen a special on Jimmy, where they spoke to several former players and officials about his career, his highs, trying times as well as that ill-tempered end to his career, and even the perspective of a selector (Chetan Chauhan) who wanted him in the team at all costs but was alone, as others wanted him out. That special comes on Ten Cricket, but I don't know when repeat telecasts come. It's an interesting feature about one of India's most under-rated cricketers of all time.

Hey why don't you do one mate?

 

[Xuhaib]

wasn't Jimmy involved in a rape case?

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

Oh dear. This thread has boiled down to a Dravid vs. his peers debate and it seems that I've been fully responsible for that. That wasn't my intention as the subject of this thread must be the great Jimmy Amarnath and his achievements.

However, it is important just to sum-up my points for Vcs, Ankit and the others. My argument was based purely as aptitude against pace bowling - so speed, bounce, movement in the air and off the track would all be important criteria to judge a batsman's game against. Rarely would you see a top-notch pace bowler who is just up and down; invariably he'd move it at high pace.

My conclusion is that Rahul Dravid is one of the finest players as far as all-round game against pace bowling is concerned. Dravid of the 1999-2006 period and Ponting (of around the same period) were the only two modern batsmen that I genuinely felt could give a decent account of themselves against the Caribbean pacemen of the 1980s.

I must also say that Sehwag is one of the best "readers" of a bowler's action that I have seen. His ability to pick all kinds of slower balls, Mendis' carrom ball and other arm balls and doosras is arguably the best I've seen. The man has unbelievably good eyes. The value of Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar or someone else to the team and their overall stature as batsmen is debatable and that's for a different day and thread.

Now let's get back to the legend at hand - Mohinder Amarnath. Arjun makes a very, very good point. I'll try to find some good reviews about his batting and post them over this weekend. This performance against Marshall-Garner-Holding-Roberts, Imran and Hadlee is something that must be highlighted more to show what a truly great player he was.

 

[honestbharani]

lol @ Lara's ranking Vs pace.. If there was a better player of pace bowling than Lara in the 90s and noughties, I didn't see him.. Just because he got hit a few times by Lee and Flintoff towards the end of his career doesn't mean he couldn't play fast bowling..

 

[Blaze 18]

lol @ Lara's ranking Vs pace.. If there was a better player of pace bowling than Lara in the 90s and noughties, I didn't see him.. Just because he got hit a few times by Lee and Flintoff towards the end of his career doesn't mean he couldn't play fast bowling..

This.

 

[hang on]

regarding lara vs pace (more outright pace than seam and swing aspect of it though the two are not easily separable), have seen him looking distinctly uncomfortable more often than i have the others. maybe just a perception.

his struggles in south africa against a rampaging donald in the winter of 98 was a prime example. granted, most would struggle against a rampaging donald but lara looked distinctly ordinary. the pay dispute might have been playing on his mind but such externals and intangibles cannot really be quantified.