Cook Vs the WI quartet of the 80s

[subshakerz]

Johnson and Bollinger were both dropped.

 

[TumTum]

If you are comparing them to Harris, Bollinger, and Johnson, the Pakistanis are still a superior attack.

-Asif was probably along with Steyn the best new-ball bowler in the world. Yes, he was not as effective when the wicket is flat, but as Ian Chappell pointed out, unlike Johnson, he still is tight and doesn't bowl a load of rubbish. He is unlikely to be ripped apart even if the wicket has nothing in it.

-Aamer by the end of the England series was arguably one of the best bowlers in the world as well and certainly the most talented. He did not have much experience yet had as much as skill as bowlers who had played cricket for years. In fact, what was so impressive about him was how mature he was for one so young.

-Umar Gul obviously is not as good as the other two, but to say he is not test class is a joke. He did well in England and bowled Pakistan to victory against NZ recently. Hoe does his job as far as a third seamer goes.

Compare this to Australia. Johnson is erratic and doesn't deliver when the pitch is unsupportive. Bollinger hasn't done much against batting lineups outside of NZ, Pakistan and WI. Harris has just a handful of tests. Commentators by the end of the Aus-Pak series last year were in agreement that the Pak trio had outbowled their counterparts. If fielding was the same on both sides, this wouldn't be a debate. I can't imagine Asif, Aamer and Gul with Australia's fielding unit doing as poor a job as the Aussie pacers did in the Ashes. Why are Johnson, Harris and Bollinger constantly dropped if they are so good?

How many times do I have to say this, I am not comparing them with their overall quality. All I'm saying is that there are pitches and circumstances where the Aussie attack would be better on.

As I have pointed out the Pak trio's weakness, in no way I am saying the Aussie attack have none.

This was and still is my main point of discussion, you guys just keep taking things the wrong way.

Depends where they play tbh. On a green top its Pak all the way, but on a typical OZ or SA pitch for example I would take the Aussie attack.

 

[subshakerz]

How many times do I have to say this, I am not comparing them with their overall quality. All I'm saying is that there are pitches and circumstances where the Aussie attack would be better on.

As I have pointed out the Pak trio's weakness, in no way I am saying the Aussie attack have none.

This was and still is my main point of discussion, you guys just keep taking things the wrong way.

I would pick Pakistan's attack over Aussies on any pitch, with the caveat that the fielding is the same.

In England, we have already seen Pakistan outperform Australia.

In the subcontinent, Johnson was pretty flat in India overall while Harris and Bollinger are unproven and bang-it-in sorts of bowlers don't usually succeed here. Pakistan are more adaptable, Asif is disciplined enough not to be taken apart and has done well in Sri Lanka, while Gul is the best exponent of reverse swing in these conditions.

In SA, Asif already has done better than Johnson there and I dont see why Amir wouldn't enjoy the conditions, they are made for this sort of bowler.

In Australia, we have already seen Australia struggle last Ashes. Pakistan didn't perform badly last time in the bowling department, Amir managed a five-for first time in the country while Asif ripped through Australia in Sydney. If the fielding was better (remember Ponting being dropped at 0 only to make a double ton?) it would have been a different story. Australia only looked better because Pakistan's batting lineup was ordinary and they caught their catches.

 

[Burgey]

I would pick Pakistan's attack over Aussies on any pitch, with the caveat that the fielding is the same.

In England, we have already seen Pakistan outperform Australia.

In the subcontinent, Johnson was pretty flat in India overall while Harris and Bollinger are unproven and bang-it-in sorts of bowlers don't usually succeed here. Pakistan are more adaptable, Asif is disciplined enough not to be taken apart and has done well in Sri Lanka, while Gul is the best exponent of reverse swing in these conditions.

In SA, Asif already has done better than Johnson there and I dont see why Amir wouldn't enjoy the conditions, they are made for this sort of bowler.

In Australia, we have already seen Australia struggle last Ashes. Pakistan didn't perform badly last time in the bowling department, Amir managed a five-for first time in the country while Asif ripped through Australia in Sydney. If the fielding was better (remember Ponting being dropped at 0 only to make a double ton?) it would have been a different story. Australia only looked better because Pakistan's batting lineup was ordinary and they caught their catches.

Mate, get it through your scone. Asif and the left arm kid whose name escapes me because he was only around 5 minutes before he was caught cheating, are gone! They are not part of the Pakistan attack anymore.

It's like me saying Australia's attack is better because we have Brett Lee and Stuart Clark circa 2008. It's irrelevant.

The blokes you're banging on about: They're gone. GONE! GONE! They're cheats. They've been rissoled. Gul's still there and I rate him highly tbh, but Asif and the idiot savant kid with the long hair who dropped Ponting first ball in Hobart are gone. No more. Kapput.

 

[GotSpin]

Haha yeah I'm not sure why this discussion is taking place when they're banned for cheating

 

[social]

Wow awesome....Social.........your anecdotes are just bloody awesome.

Incidentally did you get the chance to play against Imran, Wasim, or Waqar?????

Practised a little bit with both Imran and Marshall as they were good friends of one of my best mates

Both only bowled off a couple of steps in the nets but were sharp enough anyway and swung it both ways at will irrespective of the condition of the ball they had in their hand

They made it look so easy due to their perfect wrist position that it's always been a mystery to me why others couldnt at least have made a decent effort at doing the same

 

[smash84]

The blokes you're banging on about: They're gone. GONE! GONE! They're cheats. They've been rissoled. Gul's still there and I rate him highly tbh, but Asif and the idiot savant kid with the long hair who dropped Ponting first ball in Hobart are gone. No more. Kapput.

Dude This is all true and I agree with it completely but it would be appreciated if you would bother to read as to how and why the debate got here in the first place.

Practised a little bit with both Imran and Marshall as they were good friends of one of my best mates

Both only bowled off a couple of steps in the nets but were sharp enough anyway and swung it both ways at will irrespective of the condition of the ball they had in their hand

They made it look so easy due to their perfect wrist position that it's always been a mystery to me why others couldnt at least have made a decent effort at doing the same

wow......that is so cool man.......would have loved to bowl at some of these guys and bat a bit against them.......legends

 

[Xuhaib]

Mate, get it through your scone. Asif and the left arm kid whose name escapes me because he was only around 5 minutes before he was caught cheating, are gone! They are not part of the Pakistan attack anymore.

It's like me saying Australia's attack is better because we have Brett Lee and Stuart Clark circa 2008. It's irrelevant.

The blokes you're banging on about: They're gone. GONE! GONE! They're cheats. They've been rissoled. Gul's still there and I rate him highly tbh, but Asif and the idiot savant kid with the long hair who dropped Ponting first ball in Hobart are gone. No more. Kapput.

We Pakistani's get emotional when it comes to our fast bowlers its a bit like Indian's and Sachin, give us some leeway here.

 

[Burgey]

We Pakistani's get emotional when it comes to our fast bowlers its a bit like Indian's and Sachin, give us some leeway here.

Haha.. It's all good, I just think it's a mistake to talk about them in the present tense, sadly for Pakistan cricket.

 

[TumTum]

Dude This is all true and I agree with it completely but it would be appreciated if you would bother to read as to how and why the debate got here in the first place.

Tbh I don't even know why we are talking about them All I know is that there was a debate on the best current pace attack and somebody must have included them just for the sake of discussion.

@subshakerz, why are you using only recent results and then determining whether they are suited to bowl in different countries?

Firstly, you cannot generalize for every pitch to be the same in a given country.

Secondly, you surely can't be telling me that the Pakistani attack is equal to or greater then the Aussie one for EVERY SKILL THAT EXISTS?

 

[hang on]

didn't it start with the fact that cook didn't do too well against amer and asif in england a few months ago? and that that pakistan attack was better than the australian one against whom he scored a bucketload of runs. sort of...

 

[TumTum]

didn't it start with the fact that cook didn't do too well against amer and asif in england a few months ago? and that that pakistan attack was better than the australian one against whom he scored a bucketload of runs. sort of...

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[smash84]

didn't it start with the fact that cook didn't do too well against amer and asif in england a few months ago? and that that pakistan attack was better than the australian one against whom he scored a bucketload of runs. sort of...

haha....at least there is someone who reads the previous posts before jumping into a debate

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Strange how all the discussion has very little to do with the point of natural progression of athleticism in professional sport.

That's as maybe, but hasn't batting equipment improved to a much greater extent than bowling equipment. Pitches have become flatter etc. thus making batting relatively easier compared to bowling thus negating the improvements in athleticism. Cook's argument is complete tosh.

 

[abmk]

LOL @ Cook. Has one excellent series against mediocre bowling and says all this sh*t ?

 

[Top_Cat]

That's as maybe, but hasn't batting equipment improved to a much greater extent than bowling equipment. Pitches have become flatter etc. thus making batting relatively easier compared to bowling thus negating the improvements in athleticism. Cook's argument is complete tosh.

I find the whole 'batting is easier' a complex issue in some ways. Bats are more powerful and pitches have been flatter in the last 10 years, indubitably. Batting techniques have changed (blokes are more likely to try to score from any ball rather than waiting for a bowling to put one into a safe area). And certainly there are more blokes in the 50+ average club than previously.

But of those who are there, they're not 50+ by much more than players of previous generations. Whilst not completely negating the effect of the above, that edges are more likely to carry to slips or to a fielder in the deep these days does provide some brake on the scoring, I reckon.

 

[Austerlitz]

Wanna see cook vs steyn in SA or a good english pitch.Will see if he can walk the walk when facing ATG lvl at their peak bowling first time in his career.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I quite agree, T_C. I was playing Devil's Advocate in some ways.

What I was saying is that Cook almost makes the assumption that the improvement in athleticism is equal for batsman and bowlers. Therefore, as batting has *clearly* improved, so has bowling.

His argument clearly doesn't control all the variables - the main one being that bats, pitches and protective equipment have improved to a much greater extent than bowling equipment.

 

[social]

I might be missing something here but just how has protective equipment improved significantly since the early 80s?

 

[social]

That's as maybe, but hasn't batting equipment improved to a much greater extent than bowling equipment. Pitches have become flatter etc. thus making batting relatively easier compared to bowling thus negating the improvements in athleticism. Cook's argument is complete tosh.

Today's Kookaburra ball is much less "bowler friendly" than the 80s version which had a far more pronounced seam - something to do with switch from 100% hand-made to machine production