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*Official* - Road to India in England 2011

Who will win the England India Test Series 2011


  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .

Spark

Global Moderator
Not sure on this one really. Very few Tests are decided that early on, surely?

Take Cardiff '09 or Adelaide 2010. I'd say those Tests were dominated, but there was always a question on whether the winning side would be able to finish it off.
True. Two days could be a bit much. Generally speaking though, you'd say that a Test was dominated if it was one-way traffic for the vast majority of it. Melbourne and Adelaide are two perfect examples of that.

Regardless of which it's pretty silly to be using the word "dominated" wrt individual Tests or even series (unless they're long 4 or 5-match series in which intra-Test trends are ironed out in the scheme of things). "Dominated" is more to do with long periods and general trends in Tests over the course of seasons and years. And certainly you can't, for example, take 3-1 and assume the same will happen in England, or the fact that India only managed to win one Test in four against NZ at what seemed to be their lowest ebb, to be good guides as to how the series will pan out.

Strange that North fell away so drastically after having a quality Ashes 2009, in relatively bowling-friendly conditions against a good attack.
Even then the signs were there though. Rocks and diamonds. All of his diamonds came on the back of a big partnership with the same batsman.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Zaheer is rubbish.
Beyond his stellar Christ Martin-esque spells I really think he is a pretty ordinary bowler... ala typical Chris Martn.

Unlike Chris Martin however his spells seem to come a wee bit more often.
Na I've always been quite anti-Zaheer. Basically the Indian Jimmy Anderson.

Better get out of this thread before the Pommie fans get on me about not rating Jimmy.
That's so ludicruous Athlai.

Think we need the usual post from vcs about Zaheer's stats over the last 3 years. The guy is averaging in the 20s on absolute roads ffs.

He is the 2nd or 3rd best fast bowler in the world. To call him 'rubbish' with a straight face is incredible. To mention the name Chris Martin in the same sentence is criminal.

If you don't rate Anderson or Zaheer, who do you rate? Steyn and that's all?
 

Bun

Banned
Strange that North fell away so drastically after having a quality Ashes 2009, in relatively bowling-friendly conditions against a good attack.
I think he basically cashed in on some strong starts didnt he?
 

vcs

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Looking at the other side of the argument, one could say that Tests in India tend to start out fairly even because of batting friendly conditions in the first 3 days. Then the game tends to move forward quickly on day 4 and 5 as the pitch breaks up, so by that measure I guess the win in Bangalore was a fairly convincing one by India. Wouldn't exactly call it dominant though.
 

Bun

Banned
That's so ludicruous Athlai.

Think we need the usual post from vcs about Zaheer's stats over the last 3 years. The guy is averaging in the 20s on absolute roads ffs.

He is the 2nd or 3rd best fast bowler in the world. To call him 'rubbish' with a straight face is incredible. To mention the name Chris Martin in the same sentence is criminal.

If you don't rate Anderson or Zaheer, who do you rate? Steyn and that's all?
in t20s he is tbh
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
If you don't rate Anderson or Zaheer, who do you rate? Steyn and that's all?
Yeah pretty much.

Morne is showing good signs. Asif and Amir were probably better (or on their way). Zaheer and Jimmy are average bowlers going through an awesome patch in my eyes and it'll take another 3 odd years of them performing at this standard for me to really rate them.
 

vcs

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That's so ludicruous Athlai.

Think we need the usual post from vcs about Zaheer's stats over the last 3 years. The guy is averaging in the 20s on absolute roads ffs.

He is the 2nd or 3rd best fast bowler in the world. To call him 'rubbish' with a straight face is incredible. To mention the name Chris Martin in the same sentence is criminal.

If you don't rate Anderson or Zaheer, who do you rate? Steyn and that's all?
That's Teja's remit, FTR. :p
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Looking at the other side of the argument, one could say that Tests in India tend to start out fairly even because of batting friendly conditions in the first 3 days. Then the game tends to move forward quickly on day 4 and 5 as the pitch breaks up, so by that measure I guess the win in Bangalore was a fairly convincing one by India. Wouldn't exactly call it dominant though.
They seriously ****ed up the end of the first innings though. I think they either got a small deficit or a small lead which was wiped out by Watson in about two overs anyway. Wouldn't have dreamed that was possible when Sachin and Vijay were tearing us to shreds and one for about 300.
 

hang on

State Vice-Captain
a man to man comparison (doesn't say too much but fun and somewhat englightening, nonetheless).

openers:
strauss and cook vs. sehwag and gambhir

very difficult to call. cook has been in excellent form recently but, then, so has gambhir, even in 'away' conditions, allegedly the average indian batsman's bete noire. sehwag has a mediocre record in england, and indeed in places where there is lateral movement - nz and sith effrica), but he is quite unique, perhaps even a genius, and counting him out is foolhardy. even stevens with home conditions negating any advantage that the fear of a potential sehwag special might give.

middleorder:
trott, pietersen, bell, morgan vs. dravid, tendulkar, laxman, raina/pujara

on paper, the indians have it by a country mile. any team with tendulkar and dravid and all that. however, dravid hasn't been anywhere near his best recently and trott is a dravid in the making. tendulkar is having an extended indian summer in the autumn/winter of his career and can be expected to make some big runs. pietersen hasn't been close to the kp of 07 vintage, when he was a dominating batsman, the 200 at adelaide notwithstanding. laxman, too, has been playing quite superbly of late, but while it is anathema to compare bell to laxman, i would dare to at present given that bell has also been batting like a dream and seems to have finally discovered how to make the most of his considerable potential. the pujaras vs the morgans would cancel each other out. the indians have it by a slight bit.

keepers:
prior and dhoni -- much of a muchness

seam bowling:
anderson, broad, tremlett, bresnan/finn vs. khan, sreesanth, patel, sharma/another.
while anderson and khan cancel each other out, the depth of the english lineup (and the bench which also has shezad and others) would be ahead of their indian counterparts, though it needs be said that even inexperienced indian seamers often do well when conditions suit and so it might be unwise to count them out completely.

spin:
swann vs. singh
swann, for my money, is a slightly better bowler at present even though singh didn't bowl too badly in the tests in south africa. however, he will be bowling at the indian batsmen, who are undoubtedly the best players in the world, bar none.
even stevens.

captaincy:
strauss vs. dhoni
again even stevens

fielding:
england takes this though the indians, for all their lack of mobility on the ground (let's face it, some of them look like constipated camels galumphing along after the mirage that is the ball), are safe, even if not exactly brilliant, catchers.

difficult to call but i would back the staggering indian batting to bail them out of some parlous situations and help them sneak the series 2 - 1.
 
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Daemon

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Have replied to this above.
Was referring to this one actually

But we aren't looking at it from a result viewpoint, we're trying to compare performances of players and teams against each other, something which 2-0 does not reflect. And if you want to take this from a 'result viewpoint, then what does a 3-1 win away tell you?
Anyways, as for dominating 'over the course of the series', even in the second match which we won convincingly, we only dominated in the last day of the series. Before that for all 9 days of cricket it was pretty even. There were times where we did well but there were also times where we didn't. As for the game coming alive on the last couple of days of the game, the game was pretty much shifting balance throughout the series and it just came 'alive' because it became a do or die kind of situation in the end where India prevailed. Doing a lot better on one or two days as compared to being even on the rest of the days doesn't equate to irrefutable dominance.

If you refute this by saying we dominated because in sports only results matter etc etc, then reply to the quote above.
 
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Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Yeah pretty much.

Morne is showing good signs. Asif and Amir were probably better (or on their way). Zaheer and Jimmy are average bowlers going through an awesome patch in my eyes and it'll take another 3 odd years of them performing at this standard for me to really rate them.
What has Morne done on flat tracks though?

Should be a gun obviously. But Zaheer and Jimmy have done more at this stage.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
a man to man comparison (doesn't say too much but fun and somewhat englightening, nonetheless).

openers:
strauss and cook vs. sehwag and gambhir

very difficult to call. cook has been in excellent form recently but, then, so has gambhir, even in 'away' conditions, allegedly the average indian batsman's bete noire. sehwag has a mediocre record in england, and indeed in places where there is lateral movement - nz and sith effrica), but he is quite unique, perhaps even a genius, and counting him out is foolhardy. even stevens with home conditions negating any advantage that the fear of a potential sehwag special might give.

middleorder:
trott, pietersen, bell, morgan vs. dravid, tendulkar, laxman, raina/pujara

on paper, the indians have it by a country mile. any team with tendulkar and dravid and all that. however, dravid hasn't been anywhere near his best recently and trott is a dravid in the making. tendulkar is having an extended indian summer in the autumn/winter of his career and can be expected to make some big runs. pietersen hasn't been close to the kp of 07 vintage, when he was a dominating batsman, the 200 at adelaide notwithstanding. laxman, too, has been playing quite superbly of late, but while it is anathema to compare bell to laxman, i would dare to at present given that bell has also been batting like a dream and seems to have finally discovered how to make the most of his considerable potential. the pujaras vs the morgans would cancel each other out. the indians have it by a slight bit.

keepers:
prior and dhoni -- much of a muchness

seam bowling:
anderson, broad, tremlett, bresnan/finn vs. khan, sreesanth, patel, sharma/another.
while anderson and khan cancel each other out, the depth of the english lineup (and the bench which also has shezad and others) would be ahead of their indian counterparts, though it needs be said that even inexperienced indian seamers often do well when conditions suit and so it might be unwise to count them out completely.

spin:
swann vs. singh
swann, for my money, is a slightly better bowler at present even though singh didn't bowl too badly in the tests in south africa. however, he will be bowling at the indian batsmen, who are undoubtedly the best players in the world, bar none.
even stevens.

captaincy:
strauss vs. dhoni
again even stevens

fielding:
england takes this though the indians, for all their lack of mobility on the ground (let's face it, some of them look like constipated camels galumphing along after the mirage that is the ball), are safe, even if not exactly brilliant, catchers.

difficult to call but i would back the staggering indian batting to bail them out of some parlous situations and help them sneak the series 2 - 1.
Quality post, agreed with basically all of it if I had to put my chips on the table somewhere. Although I would suggest the English seam bowling is further above the Indian, and likewise the Indian middle order is further above the English, than you state.
 

vcs

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They seriously ****ed up the end of the first innings though. I think they either got a small deficit or a small lead which was wiped out by Watson in about two overs anyway. Wouldn't have dreamed that was possible when Sachin and Vijay were tearing us to shreds and one for about 300.
Yeah, that late collapse was disappointing TSTL after Sachin and Vijay doing all the hard work. But I really liked the way Sree and Zaheer bowled to the tailenders early on day 5, that's when I knew we would win the game. One of the tightest spells I've seen by Indian quicks operating in a partnership, even though it was only against tailenders. :cool:
 

Bun

Banned
They seriously ****ed up the end of the first innings though. I think they either got a small deficit or a small lead which was wiped out by Watson in about two overs anyway. Wouldn't have dreamed that was possible when Sachin and Vijay were tearing us to shreds and one for about 300.
Spark, you've not followed cricket in the SC I guess. The trend has been almost always that, win toss bat first build total and then the game comes alive in the last 2 days.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
What has Morne done on flat tracks though?

Should be a gun obviously. But Zaheer and Jimmy have done more at this stage.
It's purely based on how I actually see them as bowlers than merit really. I know Zaheer and Jimmy are statistically right up there with the very best right now, but I can't rate them when I watch them play.

If it doesn't swing they're both so meh IMO.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Spark, you've not followed cricket in the SC I guess. The trend has been almost always that, win toss bat first build total and then the game comes alive in the last 2 days.
I'm pretty sure they would have wanted a first innings lead that was somewhat meaningful if they were 1/300.

---

2/346. Forgot about Dravid, my bad. They lost their last five wickets for less than 10 runs. First innings lead was 17 which lasted a grand total of 5 overs. At that stage you'd say we were ahead.

It's purely based on how I actually see them as bowlers than merit really. I know Zaheer and Jimmy are statistically right up there with the very best right now, but I can't rate them when I watch them play.

If it doesn't swing they're both so meh IMO.
Anderson has a lot more tools in his weaponry now tbf. Still far too prone to going completely AWOL for extended periods though.
 
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hang on

State Vice-Captain
they should definitely have got a significant lead in the second test. and also the first test, actually, since they were sitting pretty at one stage with only 4 or 5 wickets down for something like 350 but then collapsed with johnson mysteriously finding his johnson.
 

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