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*Official* - Road to India in England 2011

Who will win the England India Test Series 2011


  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .

Howe_zat

Audio File
No, while being dominant increases your chances of winning series, it isn't the only criteria to make you win em. See Ashes 2009 for example. Australia iirc dominated Eng in the batting charts, but didn't make it.

The difference with this indian team is, they can be dominant, AND they can win it when they aren't.
Obviously it's the key moments that count, that's a much more reasonable point. The problem there is that these things are nigh impossible to predict, and so you can only really use a measure of the overall performance, rather than the raw results, when trying to size up where two teams stand.

And you have to admit that the India-Aus series of last year was a close one, rather than just saying "whitewash" to describe what a good but narrow win.
 
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vcs

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Anyway, I think we can all agree that it's England's series to lose. :ph34r:
 

Bun

Banned
The fact that there was a close match shows we did not dominate them when you clearly suggested we did.

EDIT: Going to eat. Hope to see some reply to my 'dire argument' on the previous page when I get back.
:facepalm: dear, we dominated them "over the course" of the series...


even England was demolished by an innings in their Ashes triumph in Aus. Do any believe overall Eng weren't the dominant team??? :wacko:
 

Spark

Global Moderator
...

No they weren't.

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FWIW I wouldn't surprised at all if India did pull off a fairly convincing win, but this "unbeatable" nonsense is, well, exactly that. Nonsense. I would not be surprised if England won, either. These are two very good Test sides playing here.

Anyway, I like your revisionism. Especially given the 2nd Test was considered "tense" until the start of the 5th day.
 
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Howe_zat

Audio File
We got rolled in the Tests where England beat us. That series is statistically odd in that each team took it in turn to **** all over the other. England did it more often. (in fact that's a fascinating trend that there hasn't been a single close Ashes Test since 05. Since then it's been one team rolling the other in succession)
Interesting. What about the draws? Edgebaston 2009, were it not for the rain, was pretty well poised.
 

vcs

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...

No they weren't.

---

FWIW I wouldn't surprised at all if India did pull off a fairly convincing win, but this "unbeatable" nonsense is, well, exactly that. Nonsense. I would not be surprised if England won, either. These are two very good Test sides playing here.

Anyway, I like your revisionism. Especially given the 2nd Test was considered "tense" until the start of the 5th day.
AWTA.

z
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Interesting. What about the draws? Edgebaston 2009, were it not for the rain, was pretty well poised.
True, but IIRC we were quite some distance in front by the time it ended (250+ runs, wasn't it?) with some runs in the shed. Hard to read a lot into a three-day Test though, other than Onions and Anderson are good in swinging conditions and Marcus North and Michael Clarke really like batting together.
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
SA-England: 1-1
SA-India: 1-1

India-Australia: 2-0
Australia-England: 1-3

But yeah, total dominance, England have got nothing on India in results, etc, etc.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
That SA-England series made me feel a lot better about Cardiff (from "abysmal" to merely "****"). See, we're not the only ones who can't take that goddamned 10th wicket!
 

Bun

Banned
The fact that there was a close match shows we did not dominate them when you clearly suggested we did.

EDIT: Going to eat. Hope to see some reply to my 'dire argument' on the previous page when I get back.
Have replied to this above.

Bun, just how many teams has this Indian team "dominated" away from home? Just to clarify, I have the greatest admiration for their knack of pulling out results in adverse circumstances, but they haven't "dominated" an series outside the subcontinent, like say, England in the recent Ashes, in my lifetime. In recent tours, it's India who have been dominated on the stat-sheets and came away with a share of the spoils, but they certainly haven't dominated.
I am sure you're an Indian fan, who is extremely hard to please. :sleep: No shame in that, typically a majority of us are, that runs in our blood this tendency for self deprecation and humility.

Firstly, dominance needs to be defined. I think if we all sit around a table and try to arrive at some consensus, the only time any team would've dominated the other in the last 10-15 years would be the 06-07 Ashes series. that's not what I am talking about. For me, a 2-0 result in a 2 test series is also dominance. So what if we lost by 1 run or 1 wicket, a test. We won the other convincingly and in the end won it fair and square.

And not as if India have been struggling all this time along otherwise.

Obviously it's the key moments that count, that's a much more reasonable point. The problem there is that these things are nigh impossible to predict, and so you can only really use a measure of the overall performance, rather than the raw results, when trying to size up where two teams stand.

And you have to admit that the India-Aus series of last year was a close one, rather than just saying "whitewash" to describe what a good but narrow win.
Like reading your posts. :cool:

But slight disagreement here, what really qualifies as dominance if not match results? Why are we building alternative constructs to earmark dominance when for all that is, results are what really count in sports? Where do we stop and most importantly how do we build consensus? These are all hugely subjective and for me they aren't really above the ultimate thing, which is results.

It was just 1 test in that Aus series that went down to the wire. The other was won convincingly and in the end it was a superb 2-0. And for all purposes, it was a whitewash from the results side. There can be only 1 definition for whitewash, one built around the final results. That we acheived. The rest is all ornamentary imho.

Anyway outta this argument. We are the favorits for this test series, and for me it will be a disappointment if we don't win atleast 3 tests.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
In order to "dominate" IMO the result should be more or less decided a long time (at least two days) before the match actually finishes.

So that 2nd Test whilst convincing was nowhere near dominant since the result was still in question until the last day.
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
True, but IIRC we were quite some distance in front by the time it ended (250+ runs, wasn't it?) with some runs in the shed. Hard to read a lot into a three-day Test though, other than Onions and Anderson are good in swinging conditions and Marcus North and Michael Clarke really like batting together.
Looked it up and they were "net" 262/5, so maybe a slight advantage Australia, but if they still had the day-and-a-half lost it'd be a very interesting position. They might've been tempted to go for a target and lost wickets, plus the Aussie tail hadn't been making runs iirc. All 3 results possible.

Did Clarke and North have any partnerships in 2010?
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Looked it up and they were "net" 262/5, so maybe a slight advantage Australia, but if they still had the day-and-a-half lost it'd be a very interesting position. They might've been tempted to go for a target and lost wickets, plus the Aussie tail hadn't been making runs iirc. All 3 results possible.

Did Clarke and North have any partnerships in 2010?
Tail had been, Mitch had hit a half-century the previous match. Fair point, but, y'know, three-day Test. Maybe they'd have rolled us if they had more time and put more runs on the board.

And yep, two big ones vs. NZ. Not coincidentally they were two of North's three decent scores of the year (the other being when Clarke had suddenly fallen into "what the **** I've forgotten how to bat" mode. Ponting took his place). I posted quite a few times here that when an (in-form) Clarke scoring runs vastly increased the chances of North scoring runs, partially because the way Clarke bats (in form) is exactly the kind of batting North needed to help cover up his early weaknesses.

And lolling at the definition of dominance. So two one-run victories on the back of wrong decisions count as dominance. Right. Why bother playing cricket then, just toss a coin to decide who wins and loses.
 
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Howe_zat

Audio File
In order to "dominate" IMO the result should be more or less decided a long time (at least two days) before the match actually finishes.

So that 2nd Test whilst convincing was nowhere near dominant since the result was still in question until the last day.
Not sure on this one really. Very few Tests are decided that early on, surely?

Take Cardiff '09 or Adelaide 2010. I'd say those Tests were dominated, but there was always a question on whether the winning side would be able to finish it off.
 
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vcs

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Strange that North fell away so drastically after having a quality Ashes 2009, in relatively bowling-friendly conditions against a good attack.
 

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