West Indies vs Australia

[Mike5181]

oh and if we are talking about ODIs, I'd take the Aus team over the WI team .....

Yeah, there were other players that contributed in the ODI team as well with the likes of Bracken, Symonds etc. Not to mention Brett Lee having a king record in the format.

 

[abmk]

I think if the likes of Michael Clarke or someone in that mold faced them then yeah but i rate Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Waugh, Hussey as pretty tough guys in cricketing terms especially Waugh and Ponting. You have to take a bit of stick to rise to the top of Australian cricket in those days as a lot of players actually came out and said. Fierce competitors. Not to say their stats wouldn't drop quite a bit, they would. I doubt many would survive a ball to the face from one of the West Indian bowlers.

Hayden struggled against quality pace attacks early on in his career . The only other pace attack he faced off that caliber was in Ashes 2005 where he flopped

The theory that Lee's bowling stats are a bit higher than they would be if he bowled in the 80s is applicable to the Australian batsmen as well of course as i think i noted earlier. I think this game should be played with helmets though . I cringe every time i see footage of Thommo bowling to batsmen.

It would be interesting to see where people rate Brett Lee's pace in comparison to the West Indies bowlers of the 80s. Surely not many would be quite as fast as Lee, Ahktar, Bond, Tait? 150k maybe but 160?

Interesting video on the subject
YouTube - Lillee & Thomson bowling speeds

lee is faster than all the WI bowlers were ...

bond was quick , but I don't think he touched the 155+ mark ...but was more complete a bowler than any of the others by some distance

I'd put lee, akhtar,tait and thommo in the same group as far as pace is concerned

 

[Mike5181]

not for the WI batsmen

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

fact is hayden's stats are skewed in his favour somewhat by him playing more tests at home when compared to greenidge ( minnows as well as bagapath mentioned )

regarding draws , not sure what exactly your point is !?

Also remember those days, a 80 ball 25 ( seeing off the new ball ) might probably be more valuable than a 40 ball 30 (this matters a hell lot as far as openers are concerned ) its not just the runs /average

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

The minnow bashing is a myth to be honest. He only ate dinner in one innings against Zimbabwe. He didn't do much against Bangladesh and his average is fairly consistent against all the other test playing nations except New Zealand where he had a little trouble.

 

[abmk]

Yeah, there were other players that contributed in the ODI team as well with the likes of Bracken, Symonds etc. Not to mention Brett Lee having a king record in the format.

bracken, symonds , hussey, bevan etc !

Lee is an ATG as far as ODIs are concerned, would be in my top 10 in ODI bowlers list

 

[smash84]

Pretty happy with the bowlers ranking although I may have Warne in front of McGrath at four

Batting again just some minor changes imo

1. richards
2. ponting
3. greenidge
4. gilchrist
5, 6. s.waugh >= lloyd
7,8. richardson >= hayden
9,10. haynes hussey
11 langer
12. m.waugh
13. gomes
14. dujon

I don't really see why Gilchrist gets voted ahead of S Waugh for test matches

 

[Spark]

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

The minnow bashing is a myth to be honest. He only ate dinner in one innings against Zimbabwe. He didn't do much against Bangladesh and his average is fairly consistent against all the other test playing nations except New Zealand where he had a little trouble.

Yeah aside from that one all-you-can-eat episode, I don't remember all that many minnow-bashing innings from Hayden.

 

[abmk]

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

The minnow bashing is a myth to be honest. He only ate dinner in one innings against Zimbabwe. He didn't do much against Bangladesh and his average is fairly consistent against all the other test playing nations except New Zealand where he had a little trouble.

But his average against teams minus zim and bangla is 2 points lesser than his overall average - yeah that 380 is a big reason in that

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Ikki was asking for the 'reasons' in difference of averages of gordon and haydos ... and yeah a factor of average difference of 2 does matter

 

[Ikki]

not for the WI batsmen

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

fact is hayden's stats are skewed in his favour somewhat by him playing more tests at home when compared to greenidge ( minnows as well as bagapath mentioned )

Not really, it depends how much you afford that average to the pitch or the relative lack of firepower of the opposition bowling on your home ground. In essence, he scored more on livelier pitches than he did on roads (like in subcontinent). So you are actually helping him out even though he had more matches on easier surfaces to score.

Hayden actually averages more than Greenidge away from home - 4 points more when you consider Hayden's 00s era (which is what is actually relevant). But let's take into account the proportion of home and away matches.

If they played 80 innings each, home and away from home (since Hayden has neutral tests) their averages would be 50.62 v 45.42 - Hayden by 5 points. Even if you included Hayden's series in the 90s as well, he'd still average 48.5 - 3 points difference. So it wouldn't change a whole lot.

Also remember those days, a 80 ball 25 ( seeing off the new ball ) might probably be more valuable than a 40 ball 30 (this matters a hell lot as far as openers are concerned ) its not just the runs /average

No, a 40 ball 30 is always better than an 80 ball 25 unless you are trying to draw the match on purpose. Which is kind of the point I was suggesting about draws - more runs scored in them, less pressure during Greenidge's era to go for the win; therefore there were more matches of these kind to score more runs in.

 

[Mike5181]

But his average against teams minus zim and bangla is 2 points lesser than his overall average - yeah that 380 is a big reason in that

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Ikki was asking for the 'reasons' in difference of averages of gordon and haydos ... and yeah a factor of average difference of 2 does matter

I would say you could more than attribute the gap in the averages just by the difference in eras. Considering the amount of runs in the modern game has increased since the 80s its only natural the numbers will be higher. It doesn't necessarily mean the player is better. In this case i really think its marginal and if anything Greenidge is slightly better but hey Hayden destroyed/demoralised attacks while maintaining an ATG average much like Sehwag. Would you rate Sehwag>Greenidge?

 

[Mike5181]

bracken, symonds , hussey, bevan etc !

Lee is an ATG as far as ODIs are concerned, would be in my top 10 in ODI bowlers list

2000s ODI team
1. Matthew Hayden
2. Adam Gilchrist+
3. Ricky Ponting (c)
4. Shane Watson
5. Andrew Symonds
6. Michael Hussey
7. Michael Bevan
8. Shane Warne
9. Brett Lee
10. Nathan Bracken
11. Glenn McGrath

 

[Spark]

No way I would have Watson at 4. Watson at 7, and move Muss or Symonds to 4, or pick a genuine #4.

 

[Mike5181]

No way I would have Watson at 4.

I had Martyn but Watson is the best all rounder and i don't want to break up Gilchrist and Hayden.

 

[bagapath]

My combo team has 6 aussies and 5 west indians; each and everyone is a legend.

Greenidge
Hayden
Richards
Ponting
Lloyd (C)
S. Waugh
Gilchrist (WK)
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose
McGrath

The left-over XI

Haynes
Langer
Richardson (C)
M. Waugh
Gomes
Hussey
Dujon (WK)
Lee
Gillespie
Holding
Garner

The quality of west indians in this team is better than the aussies. That is why I feel when u divide the teams according to nationalities, the windies have their nose ahead even though more aussies make it to the first XI.

 

[Spark]

Watson would be really bad at #4. You need a worker of singles, an accumulator and someone who is adept at playing spin. Watson is none of these. Hussey, Martyn and Clarke are all much better options for #4.

 

[smash84]

Well tbf a straight numbers comparison with the 80s is quite difficult with 00s. Heck even MoYo averages around 56 or something thanks to the 00s. The records in the 00s will have to be taken with a pinch (or a pint) of salt

 

[honestbharani]

The best Aussie ODI side didn't have an allrounder, IIRC..

 

[salman85]

Im mildly surprised that Walsh has hardly been mentioned here.Yes Ambrose was the superior bowler,but surely if you're talking about the 1980s,then Walsh has a very strong case for inclusion in the WI side,perhaps even at Ambrose's expense.

 

[Mike5181]

Damien Martyn > Mark Waugh

 

[Mike5181]

Im mildly surprised that Walsh has hardly been mentioned here.Yes Ambrose was the superior bowler,but surely if you're talking about the 1980s,then Walsh has a very strong case for inclusion in the WI side,perhaps even at Ambrose's expense.

West Indies 1980s
1. Gordon Greenidge- 5094 runs @ 45.89
2. Desmond Haynes- 5074 runs @ 41.25
3. Viv Richards- 5113 runs @ 49.16
4. Clive Lloyd (c)- 2881 runs @ 52.38 8
5. Richie Richarsdon- 3320 runs @ 48.11
6. Larry Gomes- 2490 runs @ 40.81
7. Jeff Dujon (wk)- 2885 runs @ 36.06
8. Macolm Marshall- 323 wickets @ 19.91 SR 44.5
9. Michael Holding- 184 wickets @ 23.38 SR 50.3
10. Courtney Walsh- 122 wickets @ 24.24 SR 54.2
11. Joel Garner- 210 wickets @ 20.62 SR 51.8

Australia 2000s
1. Michael Hayden - 8364 runs @ 52.93
2. Justin Langer - 5994 runs @ 48.73
3. Ricky Ponting- 9458 runs @ 58.38
4. Steve Waugh- 2825 runs @ 53.30
5. Damien Martyn- 4089 runs @ 48.67
6. Michael Hussey- 3638 runs @ 51.97
7. Adam Gilchrist (wk)- 5130 runs @ 46.63
8. Shane Warne- 357 wickets @ 25.17 SR 50.7
9. Brett Lee- 303 wickets @ 31.27 SR 53.8
10. Jason Gillespie- 209 wickets @ 27.09 SR 57.4
11. Glenn McGrath- 297 wickets @ 20.53 SR 51.4

Ambrose only played from like 1988 and his stats weren't as good anyway.

 

[salman85]

I missed your earlier post.

Walsh is pretty underated TBH.A better bowler than Lee,and right up there in the tier that follows the greatest fast bowlers of all time.