Who would be the better captain

[Spark]

Here's an interesting one.

Whenever an Australian ATXI is put up, almost invariably Bradman is placed as captain. But I often see AB placed in the same team - and I cannot help but think of the possibility that Border may have been the better captain.

I'm not saying he would be and I'm completely undecided either way, but I'm interested to see what people think nonetheless - partly because I've never seen anyone talk about it - who would be the better captain in a team containing both Don Bradman and Allan Border?

 

[benchmark00]

The issue of whether AB is a better captain than Braddles is a moot point, because AB wouldn't be the best captain for that Australian all time XI.

My summary of Border's captaincy is that he ruled with an iron fist and by fear... i.e. people were afraid to **** up because Border was heavy handed, and he could be because he was the best player in the team.

If you put Border in an all time Australian XI, he won't be the best batsman (probably the 6th best actually) so his captaincy tools will be blunted, so to speak.

 

[smash84]

Dhoni

 

[smash84]

The issue of whether AB is a better captain than Braddles is a moot point, because AB wouldn't be the best captain for that Australian all time XI.

My summary of Border's captaincy is that he ruled with an iron fist and by fear... i.e. people were afraid to **** up because Border was heavy handed, and he could be because he was the best player in the team.

If you put Border in an all time Australian XI, he won't be the best batsman (probably the 6th best actually) so his captaincy tools will be blunted, so to speak.

Good analysis

 

[Spark]

Ah OK. That's a good point.

But I should clarify that I don't mean specifically the Aus ATXI, I mean any team in general. I realise though that it may be rendered moot for the same reason because of Bradman being, well, Bradman.

 

[Howe_zat]

Tactically speaking, I have heard very good arguments that put Benaud as the best ever Australia captain. But as Benchy said, in such a team the best player would almost certainly be made captain, as is the Aussie way. And it's very doubtful that Benaud would even make the side.

 

[Blaze 18]

I've always maintained that a captain is (to a very large extent) only as good as his team. Have <insert name of who you think is the best captain ever> captain the current Bangladesh team and it wouldn't make any discernible difference.

From your list, I'd go with the Don.

 

[keeper]

An English perspective...

Border clearly seemed to be a hugely effective captain and leader for a specific situation i.e. backs against the wall, young talent being brought together, him as one of the most experienced members of the team. Whether that translates to similar effectriveness in a team of world beaters it's very hard to say. It's certainly easier in my non-cricketing experience to forge a team of inexprienced guys that you have selected than it is to take over already experienced high performers. But that's not to say he couldn't have skippered well in other situations - he was certainly a very capable and determined bloke who engendered respect from every direction.

Don't know enough about Bradman's captaincy to judge.

Interesting broader question about the importance of captaincy in very strong teams.

 

[vcs]

The issue of whether AB is a better captain than Braddles is a moot point, because AB wouldn't be the best captain for that Australian all time XI.

My summary of Border's captaincy is that he ruled with an iron fist and by fear... i.e. people were afraid to **** up because Border was heavy handed, and he could be because he was the best player in the team.

If you put Border in an all time Australian XI, he won't be the best batsman (probably the 6th best actually) so his captaincy tools will be blunted, so to speak.

Tactically speaking, I have heard very good arguments that put Benaud as the best ever Australia captain. But as Benchy said, in such a team the best player would almost certainly be made captain, as is the Aussie way. And it's very doubtful that Benaud would even make the side.

Good posts. Would love to hear more about the Australian team in Benaud's era and his captaincy.

I think Bradman is the only captain whose team has come back from 2-0 down in a five-Test series and gone on to win the series, right? That, and winning 5-0 with the Invincibles are timeless achievements in any era. I think I would pick him for those reasons.

 

[pup11]

The thing with an all-time great side is that you definitely don't need a great shrewd captain to lead such a side but you definitely need a great player to be leading such a side so that he as a leader doesn't feel inferior to his peers.

I read an article about Ponting a few years back where he disclosed how he felt after his appointment as the Australian captain, he needed to raise the bar of his own game as a player to such a level where he could find himself worthy enough to be leading a side that had the likes of Warne, McGrath, Hayden, Gilchrist and many other champion players.

Border and Taylor are probably two of the best captains Australia has ever had, but as batsmen they really don't match upto some of the other guys who have played for Australia over the years, hence if they were to lead an ATG side then they would find it hard to stamp their authority on it.

 

[archie mac]

Went Bradman here, but if you had put up Benaud or Ian Chappell or even Joe Darling I would have gone a different option

 

[Spark]

There seem to be three separate debates going on here.

1) Is Bradman the best captain for an Aus ATXI side? Well that one is pretty easy.
2) Is Bradman the best captain Australia has ever had? Open to conjecture
3) Is Bradman a better captain than Border for any old XI containing both (other than an ATXI or close to)? That is what I was originally getting at. My suspicion is that it's situational

 

[salman85]

Being the best batsman of all time,or for that matter the best cricketer of all time does not make Bradman Australia's best captain.I think Border could well be up there as far as their best captain is concerned,because he took the job when things were not that good,and to transform that team into a top drawer side is very commendable,but an equally good argument could be made for Taylor and Ponting,both who captained in different scenarios and times.But IMO,the fact that Australia were a much weaker side when Border took over compared to when Taylor and Ponting took over gives him the edge.

For the record,i don't think Bradman should be the captain of Australia's ATG side.Like i said previously,being the best player does not automatically make you the best captain in the side.Border and Ponting would most certainly get into Australia's ATG side btw,and yes,Border would make a better captain than the Don.

 

[archie mac]

There seem to be three separate debates going on here.

1) Is Bradman the best captain for an Aus ATXI side? Well that one is pretty easy.
2) Is Bradman the best captain Australia has ever had? Open to conjecture
3) Is Bradman a better captain than Border for any old XI containing both (other than an ATXI or close to)? That is what I was originally getting at. My suspicion is that it's situational

I think the big difference is Bradman always had Bradman in his side. Alan Mac always had Bradman in front of Border so would go with that.

I also felt Border sometimes played for draws although again his team was not a great one. Later in his career he had a very good team but still played for draws. See his last Test in charge against SA

 

[Spark]

Yeah, that's why as I said the debate may be rendered moot by the fact that Bradman is Bradman, regardless of his other captaincy skills.

 

[smash84]

Apparently Ian Chappell was a very good captain and rated very highly by some. Can anyone shed some light on that?

But credit has to be given to AB for making the side a real top notch one. Tubby Taylor also played with pretty much the same sides as AB but Taylor was very very good I thought.

Also Mike Brearly does test the theory of the best player being the best captain

 

[keeper]

Also Mike Brearly does test the theory of the best player being the best captain

Extending Archie Mac's logic Brearley must have been a genius of a captain because he always had Brearley in his team.

Now there's a different debate to be had - who's the crappest player to have regularly skippered his country? I'm guessing Brearley is a Bradmanesque outlier but who comes close?

By the way, had a lot of respect for Mark Taylor. A lot of current players could learn a lot from his approach to the game.

 

[GIMH]

Lol at my post being deleted

 

[amyswan]

It merely depends on the strengths of players you have in your team. What happened to Aussies this time? Ricky Ponting is the same captain with same attacking approach but they couldn't win and everyone is blaming him. He doesn't have stars like McGrath, Shane Warne, Gilchrist, hayden etc this time. So i wouldn't vote for anyone to be a better captain.

 

[Burgey]

I think Murphy got a lock on Border's style and the situation he was in.

He was a reluctant leader and it took him a number of years to grow into the job. Tactically though, his successor was a better captain imo, but wouldn't make an AT Australian XI.

Ian Chappell was also a great captain. His players would walk over hot coals for him, apparently, and he was tactically regarded as very astute. Also worth noting he averaged approximately 50 as skipper, UIMM. But again, he wouldn't make the AT Australian XI.

Of those likely to be picked in the XI, Bradman would get the gig I suppose, but Border's captaincy seemed to get better as he got older. He certainly said he enjoyed having Warne in the side - said those last couple of years were his most enjoyable as captain. In this company, he might have been more aggressive, who knows? Afte the Madras tied test, he only ever declared again at Customs.