WHY do they say this?

[archie mac]

fair enough, nanden, u legend, u.

then all of you with a large number of posts can keep patting yourselves on the back. and keep this place a nice little old boys network. and can gang up on any upstart interlopers.

thought that new blood in a place that prides itself on discussing cricket would be welcome, but apparently not.

Well I think you are a fine addition to the forum, keep posting quality stuff

 

[GIMH]

Lol

Actually what I said was that new members shouldn't start telling people what they can and can't say

I don't believe older members should do it either btw, but I think it says a lot about a person when they join somewhere and act a certain way

And I am not a mod or a staff member so....

 

[Spark]

Honestly, there is a bigger chance of a spinner breaking Warne's record than a batsman breaking Tendy's record.

Bhajji will defintely break all bowling records and remember Bhajji and Afridi never get old.

Warne, yeah fair enough.

Murali? I'm not so sure. I'm even less sure we'll see someone like Murali - I have doubts over when, in my hopefully long life, I will look at a player and say "he bowls like Murali used to".

As for Tendulkar's record, is is possible (but highly unlikely) that a player who will break it is already playing Test cricket, and has been for some time.

 

[Cevno]

Actually there was a Young Indian bowler named Mohnish Parmar who had modelled his action on Murali and bowled in a similar way to him.
Was touted the next big thing as was very succesful in underage cricket and and even early domestic cricket ,but was called for Chucking a few times and had to remodel his action .Now after more than a year he is close to making his domestic return.

 

[hang on]

ta, archiemac.

geraintismyhero,

if u cannot see the difference between 'telling people to post a certain way' and 'bring up issues of abuse etc.' then there is really not much i can say.

and what's being a new member got to do with it?



sorry if i clubbed u in the mods/staffmember club. burgey was the one i was - should have been, if i wasn't - referring to.

 

[Ikki]

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Averages of batsmen who played that same time against the same teams that Bradman played against.

This is both home and away and 5 matches minimum ,while Bradman played SA,India and England only at home.

I think i showed a while back that if you remove the last 2/3 years and away tours to Newzealand and South Africa from Sutcliffe's record then he averaged about 75 to 80 ,i think in 40 tests or something.


,,,,,,,,.....

I agree that Bradman is the best, but stats can be twisted there too .

And don't think it is mandatory not to compare someone to him.

None of those batsmen who are listed with high averages did it over a span of many years or near as many Tests as Bradman. You can do that with plenty of batsman and find high averages amongst their contemporaries. Even an elementary understanding of stats would lead one to disregard this. You can twist stats, as you've done here, but no one has had a full career even near Bradman's.

Even when you look at Sutcliffe; true he did peak at almost 70 runs on average but in his last 3 years he went down to 60. You say remove the last few years...and if you do that you're pretty much erasing a third of his career. What more, the irony is you quote averages during Bradman's career in one instance and yet Sutcliffe averaged only 45 during this time.

It shouldn't need to be said but let it go. You can be a huge Tendulkar fan - heck proclaim he is the 2nd best batsman of all time if you like...but he does not come close to Bradman.

 

[Ruckus]

I think i showed that if you count the same countries and the same teams bradman played against sutcliffe averaged in the high 70's for most part too.

The Sutcliffe comparison is false. FC averages:

95.14
52.02

Guess which goes to which...

 

[vcs]

The Sutcliffe comparison is false. FC averages:

95.14
52.02

Guess which goes to which...

Hey man, long time no see.

 

[hang on]

i agree with what u say, ikki.

None of those batsmen who are listed with high averages did it over a span of many years or near as many Tests as Bradman.

out of curiosity, how many years/tests would have been enough? for example, if hussey had stopped, for whatever reason, after 20 odd tests with an average in early 80s or late 70s (don't know the right figure), where would he have figured in the second greatest batsman of all time argument? or even the best batsman in the oz team of the time?

purely as a thought experiment.

 

[Cevno]

The Sutcliffe comparison is false. FC averages:

95.14
52.02

Guess which goes to which...

Wasn't exactly talking about FC Averages if you read carefully.

 

[Ruckus]

Hey man, long time no see.

I don't plan on staying...just reading through the forum and that post really struck a nerve haha...

 

[vcs]

There will always be questions if a modern-era batsman plays, let's say 25 Tests, and retires with an average of 80, for whatever reason. He might be granted some slack if he retired due to injury, or personal reasons, but I would say any prospective upcoming ATGs must play at least for 10 years and 80-90 Tests.

 

[Ruckus]

Wasn't exactly talking about FC Averages if you read carefully.

That's irrevelent though, because you were in essence comparing Bradman's ability to that of Sutcliffe's. The massive difference in FC average puts to doubt any vague similarities that may exist for a certain overlapping part of their test careers.

 

[Cevno]

But the thing is with the variations and the technology about these days there is no way a bowler would take 100 wickets at a average of 10 like Lohman or average 99 in 90 odd matches .

A player can though end up averaging 80-90 odd in 30 matches specially if he plays most matches in one or 2 countries and then retire due to whatever reasons.

 

[Ikki]

i agree with what u say, ikki.



out of curiosity, how many years/tests would have been enough? for example, if hussey had stopped, for whatever reason, after 20 odd tests with an average in early 80s or late 70s (don't know the right figure), where would he have figured in the second greatest batsman of all time argument? or even the best batsman in the oz team of the time?

purely as a thought experiment.

I don't think anyone would have considered Hussey as one of the best ever if he had retired after 20 odd tests - at least in this era. In Bradman's era they played less, sure, and we have to account for that. But even the batsmen in that list with a span of several years have that because of the War. Those peaks were only on a couple year's play. Even these days we have batsmen averaging in the 60s-70s for a couple years (Sanga, Ponting, Tendulkar, Kallis, Yousuf, etc). Imagine if they coincided with the last few years of Tendulkar's career and we then used them to point out that high averages existed during Sachin's career, in an effort to belittle his record. Heck, you could probably do it right now and you'd have some batsmen averagine 10-20-30 points higher than Sachin over his career in their own little samples.

 

[Cevno]

That's irrevelent though, because you were in essence comparing Bradman's ability to that of Sutcliffe's. The massive difference in FC average puts to doubt any vague similarities that may exist for a certain overlapping part of their test careers.

So going by your logice are you implying Ajay Sharma was a greater Batsman than Sachin Tendulkar?

Ajay Sharma | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

Sachin Tendulkar | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

He has a clear advantage of 8 in FC average in the same time period.

 

[vcs]

Do Tendulkar's Test records get counted as part of his FC records?

Cevno, I think DeusEx's comparison of Sutcliffe and Bradman's respective FC records is a pretty convincing answer to your question.

 

[Ruckus]

So going by your logice are you implying Ajay Sharma was a greater Batsman than Sachin Tendulkar?

Ajay Sharma | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

Sachin Tendulkar | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

He has a clear advantage of 8 in FC average in the same time period.

No, I'm saying if you look at the overall picture (both tests and FC cricket), it becomes obvious that Bradman was in a different league to Sutcliffe - the period where Sutcliffe averaged 70-odd in tests is analogous to the period where Hussey averaged a similar amount. Look at Sutcliffe's batting graph compared to Bradman's:

HowSTAT! Player Batting Graph

HowSTAT! Player Batting Graph

What do you notice about the 'average' lines?

 

[Cevno]

Cevno, I think DeusEx's comparison of Sutcliffe and Bradman's respective FC records is a pretty convincing answer to your question.

Not really.

He is comparing their FC records in completely different countries and different competitions.

While i was talking about their international records against the same opposition in the same countries.
Sutcliffe has played in conditions which Bradman did not ,which reflects in his overall record and against different teams too.

 

[Cevno]

No, I'm saying if you look at the overall picture (both tests and FC cricket), it becomes obvious that Bradman was in a different league to Sutcliffe - the period where Sutcliffe averaged 70-odd in tests is analogous to the period where Hussey averaged a similar amount. Look at Sutcliffe's batting graph compared to Bradman's:

HowSTAT! Player Batting Graph

HowSTAT! Player Batting Graph

What do you notice about the 'average' lines?

I was not talking about periods in his career ,though i did remove the last year as he was coming down there.

But was more talking about their records against all the opposition and in the conditions Bradman played in.


Check this out -

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Averages of batsmen who played that same time against the same teams that Bradman played against.

This is both home and away and 5 matches minimum ,while Bradman played SA,India and England only at home.

I think i showed a while back that if you remove the last 2/3 years and away tours to Newzealand and South Africa from Sutcliffe's record then he averaged about 75 to 80 ,i think in 40 tests or something.

.......
What's to say had they played all their matches against the same opposition throughout their career like Bradman did they would not have mantained their averages?

Stats can be twisted both ways.