Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[Maximus0723]

If you only go by stats, how do you rate Imran a better captain then all of those with a better win ratio?

Actually I didn't take stats into account when making that judgement.

Sorry if you misunderstood me but when I wrote "Keeping above things in mind" I mean what I wrote in 1st and 2nd paragraph.

 

[archie mac]

Actually I didn't take stats into account when making that judgement.

Sorry if you misunderstood me but when I wrote "Keeping above things in mind" I mean what I wrote in 1st and 2nd paragraph.

Oh, okay. That explains it then

 

[salman85]

Don't think I said that

Certainly not what I think

My bad.You said that Imran and Javed were the best players Pakistan had during that time in the Imran vs Javed thread.

 

[bagapath]

The best skippers I have seen are lloyd, brearley, taylor, border and imran. Thus imran makes it to my top 5 from last 30 years ahead of cronje, waugh, ganguly, ranatunga and smith.

Considering benaud, bradman, chapelli, armstrong, jardine and worrell were awesome skippers before my time, I have doubts whether imran would make it to my top 8 in the all time list.

Most of them had better records than him. Majority of them had equally great man management skills as him. And almost all of them were tactically far superior to him.

That is why he is not a contender for the greatest of all time.

 

[smash84]

The best skippers I have seen are lloyd, brearley, taylor, border and imran. Thus imran makes it to my top 5 from last 30 years ahead of cronje, waugh, ganguly, ranatunga and smith.

Considering benaud, bradman, chapelli, armstrong, jardine and worrell were awesome skippers before my time, I have doubts whether imran would make it to my top 8 in the all time list.

Most of them had better records than him. Majority of them had equally great man management skills as him. And almost all of them were tactically far superior to him.

That is why he is not a contender for the greatest of all time.

The reason that I don't rate Lloyd, Taylor (Bradman too captained "the invincibles") as high as some of the others is that these guys had ATG players at their disposal. With so much riches even while being ordinary you can do extremely well. The best example that comes to mind is Ricky Ponting. His record until the McWarne retirement is better than anyone in the history of the game.

 

[bagapath]

Imran, miandad and akram is as good a core team as you will find in the history of cricket. It is not too far behind lillee, thomson and g.chappell or marshall, holding and richards. Even mcgrath, warne and s.waugh is not better than that combo.

So pl don't make it sound like imran won tons of games with crap players. He won a moderate number of games with good players.

Imran didn't even lead the team to enough wins to be praised for maximizing the talent pool he had.
Without miandad and akram even imran would have gone the ricky ponting way. Because he was tactically no better than punter.

Bradman's "invincibles" is not as great a team man to man. There were a few all time greats like the don himself, miller, morris and lindwall. But the last three were just starting their careers. Other than them the team had the equivalents of ramiz raja, salim malike, qadir and qasim. So imran is not the first one to lead moderately talented individuals. And he did not even win enough to be compared with other skippers leading similar teams.

Bradman's captaincy in the 36-37 ashes is possibly the greatest tactical education this game can provide. Imran never did anything revolutionary as the don reversing the batting order or the big cat putting together a four pronged pace attack.

 

[Sanz]

Imran was a great captain and definitely one of the greatest, Where he ranks is clearly depends on what is important for individuals who rank them. The least one do is to be consistent about the criteria they set for their evaluation.

First people start using the Stats, when stats work in favor of your argument, ignore all contexts, when they don't start talking about contexts. When stats don't work in the favor start talking about Imran's Man Management skills and how he lead in a very difficult situation in Pakistan, but when we bring the same point about Clive Lloyd, people want to completely disregard everything (including his man management skills) simply because he had too many great players in his team and suggesting as if Imran was leading a team of paupers. Imran had talents like Javed Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Wasim Akram, Abdul Qadir, Salim Malik, Waqar Younis. Give that talent to anyone and they would produce similar results (as can be seen by Javed's,captaincy record)

 

[honestbharani]

Imran Khan once granted a genie three wishes.

Imran Khan was offered the lead in Mission Impossible, but they found they had to change it to Mission Accomplised.

Actions speak louder than words, but Imran Khan speaks louder than action.

...I'm done.

Confusing Imran Khan with Rajinikanth is not cool...

 

[honestbharani]

Meh, All those jokes are old Chuck Norris jokes ftr.

Useless unimaginative ****s swap Chuck with Rajini and spam text everyone the jokes.

Rajini can plug wikileaks..



There, that one was not copied from Chuck Norris..

 

[archie mac]

My bad.You said that Imran and Javed were the best players Pakistan had during that time in the Imran vs Javed thread.

Ah yes, I say a lot of things so easy for me to confuse

Bradman's "invincibles" is not as great a team man to man. There were a few all time greats like the don himself, miller, morris and lindwall. But the last three were just starting their careers. Other than them the team had the equivalents of ramiz raja, salim malike, qadir and qasim. So imran is not the first one to lead moderately talented individuals. And he did not even win enough to be compared with other skippers leading similar teams.

Bradman's captaincy in the 36-37 ashes is possibly the greatest tactical education this game can provide. Imran never did anything revolutionary as the don reversing the batting order or the big cat putting together a four pronged pace attack.

To be fair Bradman was not the first to reverse his batting order in a Test, I think it may have been Darling circa 1901/02

Also surprised you did not include Harvey as a great from 48, although again he was just starting out

 

[bagapath]

To be fair Bradman was not the first to reverse his batting order in a Test, I think it may have been Darling circa 1901/02

Also surprised you did not include Harvey as a great from 48, although again he was just starting out

didnt know about joe darling doing that. which match?

and yes, harvey is on par with lindwall and morris. miller is a notch above but as you said, he was starting out too.

 

[smash84]

Imran, miandad and akram is as good a core team as you will find in the history of cricket. It is not too far behind lillee, thomson and g.chappell or marshall, holding and richards. Even mcgrath, warne and s.waugh is not better than that combo.

So pl don't make it sound like imran won tons of games with crap players. He won a moderate number of games with good players.

Imran didn't even lead the team to enough wins to be praised for maximizing the talent pool he had.
Without miandad and akram even imran would have gone the ricky ponting way. Because he was tactically no better than punter.

Bradman's "invincibles" is not as great a team man to man. There were a few all time greats like the don himself, miller, morris and lindwall. But the last three were just starting their careers. Other than them the team had the equivalents of ramiz raja, salim malike, qadir and qasim. So imran is not the first one to lead moderately talented individuals. And he did not even win enough to be compared with other skippers leading similar teams.

Bradman's captaincy in the 36-37 ashes is possibly the greatest tactical education this game can provide. Imran never did anything revolutionary as the don reversing the batting order or the big cat putting together a four pronged pace attack.

How did Wasim comprise the core when he was barely 4 years into his career? Wasim wasn't anywhere near great even by 1990. He averaged somewhere around 28 IIRC. What a sensational CORE.

Like I said before that there were lots of drawn games in the 80s so his wins contributed to series wins and draws ensured that the team didn't lose any series. On Indian roads 4 out of 5 matches were drawn. Only the final test match came to a result because the groundsman finally had the courage to make a rank turner. Similarly in England where Pakistan won 1-0 in a 4 match series the weather played a part in ensuring draws in other matches.

No, without Miandad and Akram he would not have gone the punter way because Punter's record really dipped after all the stars left his team. Akram wasn't a great bowler until the end of Imran's career by which time Imran was a totally spent force as a bowler. I wonder which phantom "talent pool" is being mentioned here and what core?

You always seem to bring up Lloyd's captaincy and always tend to forget the "talent pool" that he had at his disposal. Arguably The greatest ever in history so you might as well label Steve Waugh a better captain because arguably Lloyd's team despite having a better talent pool did not win 16 games on the trot nor did Lloyd win as many games. I think even Ricky Ponting broke Lloyd's record for the number of wins and consecutive wins (I will have to confirm this but I do recall something along these lines). So we end up concluding that Steve Waugh and Punter were better captains because they maximized their talent pool by winning more number of matches. Great argument.

The argument that you use for morris, miller, and lindwall applies to Anwar, Inzy, and Waqar and most of all Bradman had himself to fall back upon but towards the end of his career Imran had lost his bowling ability.

 

[salman85]

Is Bradman supposed to be a great captain by default simply because he was the best batsman ever?That's the impression i seem to get.I have heard people talk about how great a batsman he was,and how we may never see someone as good as him,but i don't remember Bradman being in the contenders for the greatest captain ever.

On the other hand,names like Lloyd,Border,Imran,Waugh etc pop up everytime the best captain thing is raised.I don't mean to use Tim De Leslie as the greatest source in the world,but even he said something along the lines of "If you're picking an all time 11 of the greatest cricketers,you'd have to pick Imran as the captain.They'll make Bradman the captain,but on merit it should be Imran".

If Lloyd brought the Islands together,Imran did the exact same thing with Pakistan when you keep the legendary grouping and individual mindset of the players in mind.Stats have been mentioned here,our own opinions have been mentioned,but speaking strictly of what cricketing experts and former players say,everytime Imran is mentioned,he is always mentioned as one of the best captains ever.It's almost like he was a better captain than he was a player.That obviously isn't true,but surely if experts and ex players rate Imran the captain so high,it would be due to good reasoning since they have played and followed the game much longer than any of us.

 

[salman85]

Is Bradman supposed to be a great captain by default simply because he was the best batsman ever?That's the impression i seem to get here.I have heard people talk about how great a batsman he was,and how we may never see someone as good as him,but i don't remember Bradman being in the contenders for the greatest captain ever.On the other hand,names like Lloyd,Border,Imran,Waugh etc pop up everytime the best captain thing is raised.

If Lloyd brought the Islands together,Imran did the exact same thing with Pakistan when you keep the legendary grouping and individual mindset of the players in mind.Stats have been mentioned here,our own opinions have been mentioned,but speaking strictly of what cricketing experts and former players say,everytime Imran is mentioned,he is always mentioned as one of the best captains ever.It's almost like he was a better captain than he was a player.That obviously isn't true,but surely if experts and ex players rate Imran the captain so high,it would be due to good reasoning since they have played and followed the game much longer than any of us.

 

[archie mac]

didnt know about joe darling doing that. which match?

and yes, harvey is on par with lindwall and morris. miller is a notch above but as you said, he was starting out too.

2nd Test: Australia v England at Melbourne, Jan 1-4, 1902 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo this one mate

Is Bradman supposed to be a great captain by default simply because he was the best batsman ever?That's the impression i seem to get.I have heard people talk about how great a batsman he was,and how we may never see someone as good as him,but i don't remember Bradman being in the contenders for the greatest captain ever.

On the other hand,names like Lloyd,Border,Imran,Waugh etc pop up everytime the best captain thing is raised.I don't mean to use Tim De Leslie as the greatest source in the world,but even he said something along the lines of "If you're picking an all time 11 of the greatest cricketers,you'd have to pick Imran as the captain.They'll make Bradman the captain,but on merit it should be Imran".

If Lloyd brought the Islands together,Imran did the exact same thing with Pakistan when you keep the legendary grouping and individual mindset of the players in mind.Stats have been mentioned here,our own opinions have been mentioned,but speaking strictly of what cricketing experts and former players say,everytime Imran is mentioned,he is always mentioned as one of the best captains ever.It's almost like he was a better captain than he was a player.That obviously isn't true,but surely if experts and ex players rate Imran the captain so high,it would be due to good reasoning since they have played and followed the game much longer than any of us.

Bradman before the war was not considered a great captain but his leadership after the war when he was around 40 was suppose to be top drawer

No one is saying Imran is not a quality captain but I have never heard too many experts rate him as the best ever, which he clearly was not by any method of comparison

 

[smash84]

2nd Test: Australia v England at Melbourne, Jan 1-4, 1902 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo this one mate



Bradman before the war was not considered a great captain but his leadership after the war when he was around 40 was suppose to be top drawer

No one is saying Imran is not a quality captain but I have never heard too many experts rate him as the best ever, which he clearly was not by any method of comparison

Tim De Lisle (I think he was the editor of Wisden????) does mention it from 4:00 onwards.

YouTube - legends of cricket imran khan

Ian Chappell rates Imran amongst the best that he has ever seen. Benaud rates him very very highly too. It is not like none of the experts think that he was one of the best ever,

 

[archie mac]

Tim De Lisle (I think he was the editor of Wisden????) does mention it from 4:00 onwards.

YouTube - legends of cricket imran khan

Ian Chappell rates Imran amongst the best that he has ever seen. Benaud rates him very very highly too. It is not like none of the experts think that he was one of the best ever,

Not the best ever, but the people you mentioned are people I certainly have a lot of respect for. Would be interesting to see where these experts rank Imran especially Benaud and Chappelli

 

[Maximus0723]

Not the best ever, but the people you mentioned are people I certainly have a lot of respect for. Would be interesting to see where these experts rank Imran especially Benaud and Chappelli

Probably, b/w 5-10.

 

[smash84]

Not the best ever, but the people you mentioned are people I certainly have a lot of respect for. Would be interesting to see where these experts rank Imran especially Benaud and Chappelli

Here is the excerpt between Harsha Bhogle and Ian Chappell

"HB: Who are the captains you have admired over the years?

IC: There are some pretty obvious ones. I had great admiration for Imran Khan as a leader. Mark Taylor, I thought, was an excellent captain. But some of the less obvious ones - I thought Mike Gatting was an excellent captain of England. One of the smartest things that Gatting did on that tour of Australia in 1986-87 was that every time Ian Botham started waving his arms around and wanted the fielder moved somewhere, Gatting just turned his back and placed the field that he wanted."

Regarding Benaud when he was picking his all time XI he said that Imran was a "very very good captain"........but I remember a program on one of the Pakistan channels where Imran came under attack from some people on his autocratic style of captaincy and there Imran quoted Richie Benaud saying that Richie thought that Imran was the greatest captain ever or something along those lines.......not sure where Imran heard it from and I don't exactly remember his exact words but the gist of his point was the Richie considered him one of the best ever

Probably, b/w 5-10.

Probably b/w 1-5

 

[JBH001]

The Sun shines so brightly through that puckered arse, it blinds me! My eyes! My eyes!

However, It is good to see the Poll achieve, at least, some level of normality.