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*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

T

Tom Halsey

International Coach
BoyBrumby said:
I agree, football is still riven with ***ism and homophobia (and sectarianism), but Keys & Gray were condescendingly disparaging rather than outright abusive. If either had called her a "****ing stupid bitch" they'd be on a par with Atkinson, but they didn't.
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Disagree. "****ing stupid bitch" implies that she's stupid and that she happens to be a woman, not that she's stupid because she is a woman.

Keys and Gray made a blanket statement that "women don't know the offside rule". As GingerFurball says, this is no different from saying that "black men don't know the offside rule", which as he also rightly says would justifyably result in the **** well and truly hitting the fan.

Though maybe I'm just biased, because I think they are a pair of ****s and am delighted Gray is gone for whatever reason it took to get him ousted.
 
GIMH

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
GingerFurball said:
The remarks during the Liverpool game were on a par with Ron Atkinson's "****ing lazy ******" remarks.

Gray and Keys remarked that a qualified referee wouldn't be capable of understanding the offside rule because said referee happened to be female. If they'd said that about a black referee, they'd have been bulleted instantly.

If anything, the furore and the "OMG, PC GONE MAD" brigade have shown that there's still a bit to go with regards to eliminating ***ism from the sport.
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Yeah, imagine if it was "queers don't know the offside rule."

Agree with grecian's post as well. Took my little girl the match earlier this season and I wouldn't have necessarily been comfortable doing that when I was her age, if that makes sense.
 
BoyBrumby

BoyBrumby

Englishman
GingerFurball said:
Keys: "Somebody better get down there and explain offside to her"
Gray: "Yeah, I know. Can you believe that? A female linesman. That's exactly what I said to them, women don't know the offside rule"
Keys: "Of course they don't."

Like I said, swap women, female, anything in that conversation that refers to the fairer *** with any words or phrases that referenced the black community (or any other minority) and there wouldn't be an argument.

Rodney Marsh got sacked for making a **** joke about the Boxing Day Tsunami. This is far, far worse.
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I want to be quite clear on this: I'm not defending or condoning Gray & Keys.

However there is clear water between abuse of the sort Atkinson came out with and what they said. Football comms make generalisations that could be considered offensive all the time; only last night Shearer and Hansen were suggesting Fabregas dived because he's a continental. Hansen said something to the effect that there was "No doubt foreigners have brought diving to the Premiership" ignoring the fact that the very English Franny Lee was hurling himself to the floor in the early 70s.

A harsh reading is that it was xenophobic, it's certainly a crass generalisation anyway. That's what I'd put Gray and Keys's delightful little exchange under.
 
Furball

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Nnanden said:
As I said, he'd form a good partnership with Gerrard and Meireles in the middle imo. Would love to have him linking up in midfield and he's probably more of a goal threat than most of our blokes. I'd like to see him in the centre, but it's possible Liverpool would push him wider, or play him off Torres. Midfield of Lucas/Meireles/Adam/Gerrard plus a wider option like Johnson/Young/N'Zogbia would be ideal.

EDIT: He might not be a winger or a second striker, but he's someone Marc. :(
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Playing Charlie Adam on the left of midfield is a recipe for disaster.
 
Furball

Furball

Evil Scotsman
BoyBrumby said:
I want to be quite clear on this: I'm not defending or condoning Gray & Keys.

However there is clear water between abuse of the sort Atkinson came out with and what they said. Football comms make generalisations that could be considered offensive all the time; only last night Shearer and Hansen were suggesting Fabregas dived because he's a continental. Hansen said something to the effect that there was "No doubt foreigners have brought diving to the Premiership" ignoring the fact that the very English Franny Lee was hurling himself to the floor in the early 70s.

A harsh reading is that it was xenophobic, it's certainly a crass generalisation anyway. That's what I'd put Gray and Keys's delightful little exchange under.
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Atkinson's crime was to use a derogatory word that has rightly become taboo. Given Atkinson's record of bringing black players through in the 70s, I don't buy for a minute that he's a big nasty racist - but that sort of language, whether it is broadcast or not, is unacceptable, and unfortunately for Atkinson, the right think to do was to sack him.

Gray and Keys' offence only seems less offensive because they didn't use the sort of language Atkinson used. Change "******" for "bastard" or "****", and what Atkinson said isn't actually particularly offensive. The same cannot be said for Keys and Gray's conversation.
 
T

Tom Halsey

International Coach
BoyBrumby said:
I want to be quite clear on this: I'm not defending or condoning Gray & Keys.

However there is clear water between abuse of the sort Atkinson came out with and what they said. Football comms make generalisations that could be considered offensive all the time; only last night Shearer and Hansen were suggesting Fabregas dived because he's a continental. Hansen said something to the effect that there was "No doubt foreigners have brought diving to the Premiership" ignoring the fact that the very English Franny Lee was hurling himself to the floor in the early 70s.

A harsh reading is that it was xenophobic, it's certainly a crass generalisation anyway. That's what I'd put Gray and Keys's delightful little exchange under.
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It is xenophobic. Again, substitute in "he dived because he's black" and there would be outrage. Hansen said something similar as well in reaction to Rooney being criticized for his performance 10 days ago at White Hart Lane. Said something to the effect that his selfless and tireless display is something that you would not get from foreign players.
 
BoyBrumby

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Tom Halsey said:
Disagree. "****ing stupid bitch" implies that she's stupid and that she happens to be a woman, not that she's stupid because she is a woman.
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Pfft. That's a rather jesuitic interpretation. If we follow that line of reasoning one could say that when Fat Ron called Desailly an "effing lazy n-word" he was suggest he was lazy and happens to be black, not that he's lazy because he's black.

It's irrelevant in either instance; both bitch and the n-word are offensive epiphets used as terms of abuse.
 
T

Tom Halsey

International Coach
BoyBrumby said:
Pfft. That's a rather jesuitic interpretation. If we follow that line of reasoning one could say that when Fat Ron called Desailly an "effing lazy n-word" he was suggest he was lazy and happens to be black, not that he's lazy because he's black.
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Don't disagree with that.

Keys and Gray's comments are arguably worse than Atkinson's IMO. They have made a comment about an entire gender not knowing the offside rule. Meanwhile, Atkinson (IMO) didn't actually air any racist opinions; he just used a taboo word to do it.
 
chalky

chalky

International Debutant
Paulsen starts again for Liverpool - was speaking to a friend of mine who is a Liverpool fan and he says Paulsen is the worst ever player for Liverpool ahead of such stars as Sean Dundee and Ronnie Rosenthal.
 
BoyBrumby

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Think after the "smash it" vid was released Keys had to go, really. Otherwise Gray would possibly have a decent case for unfair dismissal.

Wonder who'll step up? Love to see Jeff Stelling get the gig, but maybe him doing Countdown might count against him, availability wise.
 
Furball

Furball

Evil Scotsman
chalky said:
The ***ism debate rages on with Richard Keys resigning now

BBC Sport - Football - Richard Keys resigns from Sky after ***ist remarks

Although not sorry to see the back of Keys and Gray there will probably be a downside in that we will be subjected to more 'insightful analysis' from Jamie Redknapp - best get the mute button on stand by.
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Not that it really matters given Sky's virtual monopoly of EPL coverage, but I wonder how this will affect Sky's product. Keys and Gray have fronted Sky's coverage for as long as I can remember, and while this smacks of a witchunt, particularly in Gray's case, getting rid of your 2 main men can't do the presentation side of things any good.

I don't see much of ESPN's coverage of the EPL, but with the notable exception of Neil McCann, ESPN's SPL coverage blows Sky out of the water. Will be interesting to see how Sky go over the next few years.
 
sledger

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
chalky said:
Paulsen starts again for Liverpool - was speaking to a friend of mine who is a Liverpool fan and he says Paulsen is the worst ever player for Liverpool ahead of such stars as Sean Dundee and Ronnie Rosenthal.
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Best news I've had all day!
 
Jarquis

Jarquis

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Get Lee Dixon in. One of the best analysts the BBC have and gets punted behind Lawrenson and Hansen the majority of the time, I'd be fuming if I were him.
 
sledger

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
GingerFurball said:
I don't see much of ESPN's coverage of the EPL, but with the notable exception of Neil McCann, ESPN's SPL coverage blows Sky out of the water. Will be interesting to see how Sky go over the next few years.
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Something which is greatly appreciated by all 3 viewers I'm sure.
 
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