Why can't India produce great fast bowlers like Pakistan?

[thierry henry]

Shane Bond was really 6ft 2in??? He looked short in the NZ team. Yeah he would have been tall by Pak standards

Definitely

The NZ cricket team is stupidly tall

 

[smash84]

Definitely

The NZ cricket team is stupidly tall

 

[thierry henry]

Look at this

I realise the angle makes the Pakistani guys look a little shorter, but look at Bond and Southee (tall) compared to Amir (not tall).

Given Bond is short compared to most recent NZ quicks, imagine how tiny Amir would look to an NZ coach when he rocked up to the cricket academy or whatever. They'd probably get him to focus on batting or bowl spin.

 

[ankitj]

@ "stupidly tall"

 

[smash84]

Look at this

imagine how tiny Amir would look to an NZ coach when he rocked up to the cricket academy or whatever. They'd probably get him to focus on batting or bowl spin.

Amir and Akmal were quite short. Akmal is short even by Pak standards I think.

But yeah the difference in height does look quite pronounced in the picture.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I don't get TH's point tbh. Are you saying that NZers should theoretically be better fast bowlers becayse the average NZer is taller than the average Pakistani? Fast bowling isn't necessarily a function of height.

 

[thierry henry]

I don't get TH's point tbh. Are you saying that NZers should theoretically be better fast bowlers becayse the average NZer is taller than the average Pakistani? Fast bowling isn't necessarily a function of height.

I was replying to the old cliche (both in this thread and whenever the subject is brought up) that Pakistanis are "built" for fast bowling.

My point is that either (a) this is true, and in a shocking twist Malcolm Marshall actually had the perfect fast bowlers build all along, or (b) this clearly isn't true.

 

[Xuhaib]

I think the angle is making Aamer appear shorter in the picture on several occasions when he is standing with Afridi during the game they appear to be of similar height and Afridi is around 6 feet from what i have seen when I have met him. And fast bowling is just not about being tall most Pakistani fast bowlers look to get swing by pitching it up and getting it through at good pace this style of fast bowling does not require you to be 'stupidly' tall.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Yeah man we didn't have such a pathetic batting line-up until the mid-90s

Pakistan have always struggled to find good batsmen..because the first class system did not polish the talent. The people who were topping the batting averages in the 80s never made it to Imran's team because they just did not have the quality. Instead Imran had to make arbitrary selections based on his own judgment and judgment of those he trusted.
All the prominent batsmen of the 90s were hand picked by Imran - Saeed, Anwar, Aamer Sohail, Ijaz Ahmed, Inzamam ul Haq.

Indian batsmen on the other hand, by the time they make it to the internationally level, are already better prepared thanks to a relatively better first class system. If you look at the batsmen India have thrown in this decade - Gambhir, Yuvraj, Raina, Pujara, Rohit Sharma, Robin Uthappa, who despite their inadequacies here and there are still quite ahead of the likes of Imran Farhat, Taufeeq Umar, Salman Butt, Umar Amin, Hafeez..at least when it comes to the basics.
I still remember that Miandad when he was the coach in 2004 had to teach the openers Farhat and Taufeeq how to present their front foot when facing the swinging ball from Irfan Pathan on the morning of the test match. That just highlights the huge difference in the respective first class systems.

 

[thierry henry]

I think the angle is making Aamer appear shorter in the picture on several occasions when he is standing with Afridi during the game they appear to be of similar height and Afridi is around 6 feet from what i have seen when I have met him. And fast bowling is just not about being tall most Pakistani fast b

Bowlers look to get swing by pitching it up and getting it through at good pace this style of fast bowling does not require you to be 'stupidly' tall.

I would say both are around 5'11". Afridi was shorter than Ross Taylor at the toss and Taylor is imo under 6 foot.

But anyway- I don't disagree with anything you've said, but it does amaze me how many times I can very explicitly clarify a point (it isn't even really something I wanted to debate, just an observation) and yet people still completely don't get it and argue against a straw man :-(

 

[Black_Warrior]

May be our fast bowlers lack that attitude for fast bowling, like Pakistanis. How many times you see Malinga sent a 90mph bouncer and smile with the batsman rather than staring? Compare that to Gul sending a 135k bouncer and asking batsman whether he had seen that.

Look attitude has a lot to do with tradition. Bowlers like Asif, Gul, Aamer, Riaz have grown up watching Imran, Wasim and Waqar do that to batsmen all over the world..Pakistan have had a tradition of fast bowlers...Young kids growing up want to be the next Imran, or the next Wasim, few want to be the next Miandad.
Sri Lanka on the other hand, like India did not have a tradition of genuine fast bowlers.
Aggression comes from naturally when you are a genuine fast bowlers. Listen to Thomson and Imran talk about fast bowler's aggression during the MCC spirit of cricket talk and they touch on these issues.
On the other hand, Sri Lankan young cricketers are more likely to emulate Muralitharan now..and try to model themselves on his attitude, demeanor which is naturally different to that of fast bowlers.

It probably means he wasn't great.

Thats a bit harsh to be honest..Firstly it was unfair to call him great within a year..no one is great in their first year. Steyn started in 2004 and he was quite average..below average even.
To be fair to Ishant, he played a lot of cricket at home where he found very little help from the pitches..as a rookie fast bowler, who is just learning various skills, it can often throw you off track, and especially if you're getting hit, you tend to lose confidence. Just have a look at Asif's record in Pakistan...its a pretty poor average. Aamer is lucky he played most of his matches during his first year of international cricket overseas, especially in helpful conditions like New Zealand and England..that tremendously helped his confidence..
Wasim, Waqar all have slightly higher averages in India..but because they had already acquired vast confidence and experience, it did not effect them much..but for a 20 year old, who is just learning and adjusting to the rigors of test cricket, it is quite hard. Wasim Akram talks about Ishant a bit in this interview and this is what he says..

 

[Prince EWS]

I was replying to the old cliche (both in this thread and whenever the subject is brought up) that Pakistanis are "built" for fast bowling.

My point is that either (a) this is true, and in a shocking twist Malcolm Marshall actually had the perfect fast bowlers build all along, or (b) this clearly isn't true.

I don't think height actually has a great effect on how fast someone is capable of bowling (although obviously it has some) but it definitely has an effect on how well they can use that pace.

Shoaib Akhtar has a great build for bowling fast but not a paticularly great build for fast bowling, if you get my drift. Pace is generated more by strength, momentum, muscle speed and rhythm IMO, but height makes pace more effective.

 

[thierry henry]

I don't think height actually has a great effect on how fast someone is capable of bowling (although obviously it has some) but it definitely has an effect on how well they can use that pace.

Shoaib Akhtar has a great build for bowling fast but not a paticularly great build for fast bowling, if you get my drift. Pace is generated more by strength, momentum and rhythm IMO, but height makes pace more effective.

Yup, I think you might be right there to an extent, although I think below a certain height it might become harder (a lot of Pakistani seamers seam to be well built guys a shade under 6 foot, not many 5'7" blokes though)- but that doesn't really detract from my point, since we are talking about the excellence of Pakistani seamers, not just their pace.

 

[Himannv]

I don't think height actually has a great effect on how fast someone is capable of bowling (although obviously it has some) but it definitely has an effect on how well they can use that pace.

Shoaib Akhtar has a great build for bowling fast but not a paticularly great build for fast bowling, if you get my drift. Pace is generated more by strength, momentum, muscle speed and rhythm IMO, but height makes pace more effective.

So, in short, if Akhtar was taller he would be bowling slower but more effectively than what he does? Thats hard to say IMO. Its an interesting theory but I think there are far too many angles and aspects to the whole thing to determine that. Agree a lot with this bit however, i.e. Pace is generated more by strength, momentum, muscle speed and rhythm

 

[Himannv]

Definitely

The NZ cricket team is stupidly tall

 

[Prince EWS]

So, in short, if Akhtar was taller he would be bowling slower but more effectively than what he does? Thats hard to say IMO.

Nah, I don't think he'd be bowling slower. I think he'd bowling about the same speed, but be harder to handle because of the extra bounce.

 

[Xuhaib]

Nah, I don't think he'd be bowling slower. I think he'd bowling about the same speed, but be harder to handle because of the extra bounce.

yeah most of 90's Pakistani first class cricketers said Zahid was tougher to face then Shoaib since the speeds were similar but Zahid got extra lift due his height shame Rameez Raja destroyed potentially world class career.

 

[Black_Warrior]

yeah most of 90's Pakistani first class cricketers said Zahid was tougher to face then Shoaib since the speeds were similar but Zahid got extra lift due his height shame Rameez Raja destroyed potentially world class career.

Not just Rameez Raja, PCB had a hand there too.

 

[smash84]

Not just Rameez Raja, PCB had a hand there too.

true

 

[Migara]

I am not too sure I get you properly. You don't need to look menacing all the time in order to show your aggressive attitude. Wasim Akram was not too much into the batsman's face and when he was bowling everybody did know as to who was the boss and neither was Waqar Younis. Similarly Steyn isn't too theatrical either. I guess you feel that it is important for the bowler to be in the batsman's face. Then maybe you feel that Sreesanth has the right attitude????

If Sreesantha had Malinga's pace and accuracy, most batsmen would not have loved facing him, because of intimidation. Currently, Sreesanth tries to intimidate, but falls little short of ability to do it.

Yes I feel being at batsmen's face is important if you do it in a sensible manner. I've personally used it, and even if you are a slow bowler the aggression will get the laid back guys more laid back and the arousabale guys playing a **** shot.