Kallis vs Ponting as test batsmen

[Ruckus]

I think that's counter acted by the fact Ponting bat's higher in the order than Kallis.

Ponting was never much good coming in at 1/200 anyway. Almost all of his hundreds came from the loss of an early wicket.

Yeah exactly, I'm so sick of this "Hayden and co." giving Ponting easy runs argument. It just has not truth to it whatsoever. Besides, Kallis has always had good batsmen above him as well.

 

[akilana]

I think that's counter acted by the fact Ponting bat's higher in the order than Kallis.

Ponting was never much good coming in at 1/200 anyway. Almost all of his hundreds came from the loss of an early wicket.

Maybe but he comes after a solid opening pair. Smith is a quality bat but they didn't have a opening partner or good no 3 until recently. My point was that he had good dominating batsman at the other end almost always, which took pressure off him. It's different batting with Hayden and Mckenzie.

 

[NasserFan207]

Ponting - for the same reason people rate Lara as a better batsman than Steve Waugh.

Kallis only has one or two gears, Ponting can adapt his game to the situation much better be it deffence or attack. Ponting has also played many more "great Innings" compared to Kallis who has scored bucket loads of runs against weeker attacks.

Kallis as an overall player, Ponting as a batsman.

Kallis has arguably developed that recently though, not sure if you'd base that on flat tracks and bad bowling but it seems like he's found that extra gear.

 

[Ruckus]

Maybe but he comes after a solid opening pair. Smith is a quality bat but they didn't have a opening partner or good no 3 until recently. My point was that he had good dominating batsman at the other end almost always, which took pressure off him. It's different batting with Hayden and Mckenzie.

Except that most of his centuries have come when at least one of the openers have failed... It only takes one of them to be dismissed early for your argument to be false.

 

[akilana]

Yeah exactly, I'm so sick of this "Hayden and co." giving Ponting easy runs argument. It just has not truth to it whatsoever. Besides, Kallis has always had good batsmen above him as well.

Smith was the only world class batsman in SA until recently and if he was gone earlier, Kallis had to bat with ****ty batsmen. It's easier to bat along with if you have Hayden, Langer, Martyn, Gilly etc than Dippneear, McKenzie, AB (until recently), always out of form Gibbs.

Wrt to Hayden and Co, it was you who was making the point that Ponting took pressure off the other batsmen by his attacking batting. If that's true, then isn't Hayden and Co making it easier for Ponting true as well?

 

[centurymaker]

People here are so quick to forget the form of Ponting for a good 8-9 years. A longer period of sustained brilliance than almost anyone I can remember. He was named cricketer of the decade not long ago for a reason.

I suspect his batting will come good again soon and then everyone will be comparing him to Tendulkar again.

Tendulakr's resurgence began when he was 34.
Ponting's 36 so i can't see that happening anymore tbh.

 

[Eclipse]

Kallis has arguably developed that recently though, not sure if you'd base that on flat tracks and bad bowling but it seems like he's found that extra gear.

He's always been able to hit boundry's but I would love to see him come out and counter attack when his team is 3/25 like Ponting made his career doing. That's when an attacking innings is really so valuable.

 

[Ruckus]

Smith was the only world class batsman in SA until recently and if he was gone earlier, Kallis had to bat with ****ty batsmen. It's easier to bat along with if you have Hayden, Langer, Martyn, Gilly etc than Dippneear, McKenzie, AB (until recently), always out of form Gibbs.

Wrt to Hayden and Co, it was you who was making the point that Ponting took pressure off the other batsmen by his attacking batting. If that's true, then isn't Hayden and Co making it easier for Ponting true as well?

Only if he comes in when both have scored well. As I said, the majority of times he has come in and scored centuries at least one of the openers has fallen early.

Kallis didn't have ****ty batsmen ahead of him. Smith, Gibbs, Kirsten, Amla etc. are not ****ty.

 

[Eclipse]

Tendulakr's resurgence began when he was 34.
Ponting's 36 so i can't see that happening anymore tbh.

Why?

 

[Black_Warrior]

While it is undoubtedly true that it is easier to bat after Langer and Hayden than Smith and McKenzie/Gibbs but I hate those arguments when comparing two players. Two players will never have identical situations. Its not Ponting's fault he came after Hayden and Langer. Its beyond their control. We can say Viv Richards only came into bat after the 4 great fast bowlers had already destroyed the opposition so is not a great player. Thats a rubbish argument.
We have to assess players based on what they delivered in their given situation.

 

[akilana]

Except that most of his centuries have come when at least one of the openers have failed... It only takes one of them to be dismissed early for your argument to be false.

nah my point wasn't about openers. Say if Australia were 3 down and Ponting was still at the crease, he'd be batting with Martyn/S Waugh.. if 4 down, he'd be batting with Gilly.

For most part of Kallis's career, if SA were 3 down, it'd be Kallis and random player would be batting and, it it's 4 down, it'd be Kallis and Boucher. Who's had it easier?

 

[Eclipse]

nah my point wasn't about openers. Say if Australia were 3 down and Ponting was still at the crease, he'd be batting with Martyn/S Waugh.. if 4 down, he'd be batting with Gilly.

For most part of Kallis's career, if SA were 3 down, it'd be Kallis and random player would be batting and, it it's 4 down, it'd be Kallis and Boucher. Who's had it easier?

Yes but to be honest batting at 3 is harder

I really don't think it has much effect. Ponting is always attacking himself anyway so he never really needed anyone to take the pressure of his batting. If's he's at the crease the scoreboard is usually moving.

 

[TumTum]

nah my point wasn't about openers. Say if Australia were 3 down and Ponting was still at the crease, he'd be batting with Martyn/S Waugh.. if 4 down, he'd be batting with Gilly.

For most part of Kallis's career, if SA were 3 down, it'd be Kallis and random player would be batting and, it it's 4 down, it'd be Kallis and Boucher. Who's had it easier?

So you're saying your partner influences your batting performance? Complete rubbish. Only time it becomes a problem is if you are batting with the tail.

 

[Ruckus]

nah my point wasn't about openers. Say if Australia were 3 down and Ponting was still at the crease, he'd be batting with Martyn/S Waugh.. if 4 down, he'd be batting with Gilly.

For most part of Kallis's career, if SA were 3 down, it'd be Kallis and random player would be batting and, it it's 4 down, it'd be Kallis and Boucher. Who's had it easier?

I agree with Black_Warrior, I just don't think it's a meaningful argument.

 

[NasserFan207]

He's always been able to hit boundry's but I would love to see him come out and counter attack when his team is 3/25 like Ponting made his career doing. That's when an attacking innings is really so valuable.

Not necessarily. Players who come out and counterattack via blasting everything also put their wicket at a greater risk, at precisely the time when the team doesn't want someone getting out.

There are plenty of examples of great attacking innings in those situations, but they are no less valuable than a great defensive innings in the same situation.

How many times in a 25/3 situation do we see a batsman getting out to a wild shot, and promptly being ripped to pieces by the press?

 

[akilana]

So you're saying your partner influences your batting performance? Complete rubbish. Only time it becomes a problem is if you are batting with the tail.

Did you even read the arguments here? I thought that was rubbish too.

anyways read here

I don't agree with him. He is assuming dominating/not dominating good bowlers only affects the individual batsmen. When a player dominates good bowlers, it improves the performance of the other batsmen in the team. It not only puts less pressure on the batsmen at the opposite end to score off the good bowlers, but it demoralises the bowlers and can impair their performance for the rest of the match. How often have we seen someone bowl extremely well, putting immense pressure on the batting side, then a batsmen takes the attack to the bowler and he suddenly loses his form.

 

[Eclipse]

Not necessarily. Players who come out and counterattack via blasting everything also put their wicket at a greater risk, at precisely the time when the team doesn't want someone getting out.

There are plenty of examples of great attacking innings in those situations, but they are no less valuable than a great defensive innings in the same situation.

How many times in a 25/3 situation do we see a batsman getting out to a wild shot, and promptly being ripped to pieces by the press?

The point is Ponting didnt get out very often

 

[NasserFan207]

Would argue that Kallis has achieved the same as Ponting with a different style of play.

 

[Ruckus]

There are plenty of examples of great attacking innings in those situations, but they are no less valuable than a great defensive innings in the same situation.

Na, if you pull off an attacking innings in that situation it is much more valuable than a defensive one. The former demoralises the opposition and gives your team momentum whilst the latter plays more into their hands - bowlers like seeing batsmen being forced to play defensively because it makes them feel like they are still on top.

 

[akilana]

Would argue that Kallis has achieved the same as Ponting with a different style of play.

Couldn't agree more.