Kallis vs Ponting as test batsmen

[robelinda]

Was rubbish throughout 2008.

Is rubbish in whatever year SA tour England. Kallis looks so inept in the UK a soggy crumpet could stand there and lob a wet rolled up towel at him and get him out. Only batsman ive ever seen look as inept was Keith Arthurton in whatever country he was batting.

 

[Ruckus]

I think he averaged only 30 odd in 2008 but made up for it by having a great year with the ball. Just can't keep him out of the game.

True, but this thread is specifically about him as a batsmen. I don't think a lean patch can be used to belittle a player's status anyway. Heaps of top players have had lean patches for significant periods at the end of their careers, yet are still regarded just as highly (Gilchrist is one that comes to mind). Even if Ponting continued on his downward spiral until he averaged 45, you can't erase the class he has shown in the past. As they say form is temporary...etc.

 

[Jarquis]

Was rubbish throughout 2008.

So including Kallis's worst year ever and 6 months either side of it gives you..All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Still doesn't compare to the two year troughs of either Sachin or Ponting

 

[Jarquis]

True, but this thread is specifically about him as a batsmen. I don't think a lean patch can be used to belittle a player's status anyway. Heaps of top players have had lean patches for significant periods at the end of their careers, yet are still regarded just as highly (Gilchrist is one that comes to mind). Even if Ponting continued on his downward spiral until he averaged 45, you can't erase the class he has shown in the past. As they say form is temporary...etc.

But why is going from Excellent -> Good -> Medicore seen as more of an achievement than being continually Great for the entirety of your career?

 

[Uppercut]

AWTA. Numbers don't mean everything.

Sure they do. Whichever side manages to make the largest numbers appear on the scoreboard wins the match.

 

[Uppercut]

But why is going from Excellent -> Good -> Medicore seen as more of an achievement than being continually Great for the entirety of your career?

Lol. The anti-Kallis arguments are getting worse.

 

[Cevno]

So including Kallis's worst year ever and 6 months either side of it gives you..All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Still doesn't compare to the two year troughs of either Sachin or Ponting

Actually this would be more representative -

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=allround;view=match

 

[Ruckus]

But why is going from Excellent -> Good -> Medicore seen as more of an achievement than being continually Great for the entirety of your career?

Kallis hasn't been great his entire career, he is also younger than Ponting (could have a similiar slump) and both of their careers haven't finished yet. If you just look at their careers so far, I think comparing Ponting to Kallis is like comparing Tendulkar to Dravid - both batsmen have very similar overall records, yet one has achieved it with a higher SR and has dominated bowlers more, whilst the other has been more of an accumulator. There is probably a tendency to be overly critical of batsmen who accumulate more than dominate, but the bottom line is attacking batsmen will always be more highly regarded.

 

[R_D]

Ponting just a bit better than Kallis. Already been said but i like the way he dominates.

I haven't followed Kallis career that closely but i don't think he's ever had peak similar to Tendulkar, Ponting, Lara so it might be why he's bit under-rated.

 

[Jono]

It's interesting actually, both of similar vintage (think Ponting's not quite a year older) but Kallis's form isn't waning in quite the same way as Punter's is. Does make one wonder if Kallis, with his more obviously "correct" technique will be better served in his cricketing dotage.

Said that back in 2008, even when Kallis was struggling in England. I said he has the technique to play well into his late 30s, whereas Ponting didn't.

TC disagreed with me re: Kallis tbh. Cop that Top Cat

 

[honestbharani]

I like to think of when a player goes through a really, really significant lean patch. That moment hasn't come for Kallis yet.

His record in England?

 

[honestbharani]

To hit a good ball for runs takes more skill than to block a good ball... More risky as well and therefore men who consistently pull it off AND show that they can defend when required are rater higher than batsmen who can block good balls but can't always put away the good balls for runs... Then again, why even consider the fact that human beings play this game and miss out all the fun the lack of perspective brings?

 

[Jarquis]

Kallis hasn't been great his entire career, he is also younger than Ponting (could have a similiar slump) and both of their careers haven't finished yet. If you just look at their careers so far, I think comparing Ponting to Kallis is like comparing Tendulkar to Dravid - both batsmen have very similar overall records, yet one has achieved it with a higher SR and has dominated bowlers more, whilst the other has been more of an accumulator. There is probably a tendency to be overly critical of batsmen who accumulate more than dominate, but the bottom line is attacking batsmen will always be more highly regarded.

For basically no real reason.

 

[Jarquis]

His record in England?

Ponting's in India

 

[honestbharani]

Ponting's in India

sure.. but what about Ponting's in RSA and Kallis' in Aus?

 

[vcs]

Well, I can see the logic behind people rating Ponting higher because he had a more impressive "peak" (though the notion of a peak is subjective).

 

[Jarquis]

Well, I can see the logic behind people rating Ponting higher because he had a more impressive "peak" (though the notion of a peak is subjective).

Yeah, but for Kallis to maintain a higher average/comparable level of run scoring despite not having such a peak shows that he must've outbatted Ponting in other areas.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, but for Kallis to maintain a higher average/comparable level of run scoring despite not having such a peak shows that he must've outbatted Ponting in other areas.

Yes. In the end, different people value different things. Some may prefer not to judge a player during periods when he is visibly not at his best, if he has demonstrated his quality for long enough at other times in his career.

 

[honestbharani]

Yes. In the end, different people value different things. Some may prefer not to judge a player during periods when he is visibly not at his best, if he has demonstrated his quality for long enough at other times in his career.

bingo.. and all this assumption about Kallis NEVER having a bad trough is amazingly silly. What if he has one the next year, for instance? Does he suddenly plumb the depths in all your ratings?????? That one year outdoes all the good work he has done so far????

 

[Jarquis]

bingo.. and all this assumption about Kallis NEVER having a bad trough is amazingly silly. What if he has one the next year, for instance? Does he suddenly plumb the depths in all your ratings?????? That one year outdoes all the good work he has done so far????

No, it'd cause me to re-evaluate my stance atm.

For Ponting to have such a sublime peak but then a significantly lower average than Kallis means that it's impossible for him to be as good as Kallis in other areas.
It doesn't work.
It means than in other areas, outside "peaks", Kallis triumphs over Ponting. Yet these are conveniently ignore or diminished because they're not deemed to be as "awe-inspiring" parts of batting.
Which is bull****.