Who is really to blame for Australia's batting collapses post 2007 in Ashes series?

[TumTum]

Just a few averages of recent batsman for the Ashes:

MEK Hussey 67.12
SR Waugh 58.75
BJ Haddin 53.55
SR Watson 53.12 (HS of 63 though, scored a 50 almost every innings of his 5 matches )
MJ Clarke 52.62
JL Langer 50.24
ME Waugh 50.09
RT Ponting 46.78 (has averaged mid 40s most of his career)
ML Hayden 45.65
AC Gilchrist 45.12
MJ Slater 45.10
MA Taylor 42.30
MJ North 41.60
DR Martyn 37.00
SM Katich 36.50 (2009-beyond)
IA Healy 30.95

Interesting things of note:

- North has a similar performances to Martyn in Ashes series
- Haddin has no trouble keeping Gilly's legacy
- Clarke/Hussey middle order perform similar to S.Waugh/M.Waugh
- Katich has a surprisingly poor record and is definitely the weak link compared with the other 2 opening partnerships shown above

So contrary to popular opinion, our middle is not really the problem but it's Katich?

 

[vcs]

Collective responsibility.

 

[Furball]

Just a few averages of recent batsman for the Ashes:

MEK Hussey 67.12
SR Waugh 58.75
BJ Haddin 53.55
SR Watson 53.12 (HS of 63 though, scored a 50 almost every innings of his 5 matches )
MJ Clarke 52.62
JL Langer 50.24
ME Waugh 50.09
RT Ponting 46.78 (has averaged mid 40s most of his career)
ML Hayden 45.65
AC Gilchrist 45.12
MJ Slater 45.10
MA Taylor 42.30
MJ North 41.60
DR Martyn 37.00
SM Katich 36.50 (2009-beyond)
IA Healy 30.95

Interesting things of note:

- North has a similar performances to Martyn in Ashes series
- Haddin has no trouble keeping Gilly's legacy
- Clarke/Hussey middle order perform similar to S.Waugh/M.Waugh
- Katich has a surprisingly poor record and is definitely the weak link compared with the other 2 opening partnerships shown above

So contrary to popular opinion, our middle is not really the problem but it's Katich?

Looking at individual averages tells you nothing.

The entire batting line up was to blame, apart from the openers IIRC in 2009.

 

[vic_orthdox]

May extend on it at a later date, but I think a sizeable portion of the blame should go towards the openers.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

May extend on it at a later date, but I think a sizeable portion of the blame should go towards the openers.

Both get starts so often and both have pathetic conversion rates once they pass 50 so you may well be onto something here. Watson is the worst culprit, nice fancy 50's then giving it away with a loose shot is not good enough. He needs to look at the way Cook has batted in this series, once he has got in he has cashed in bigtime and enjoyed his B&B.

Obviously that isn't all of it but if you get starts you need to go on more often than the openers have been doing.

 

[Woodster]

This is a criticism I have levelled at Watson for some time, hopefully we're not tempting fate as he smashes a double ton at Perth, but he simply doesn't make his form count.

More often than not he will look good at the crease, those drives down the ground are faultless, his front foot pulls and flicks off his legs are full of authority, but bowling attacks are simply not fearful of what it may lead to. He is equally as vulnerable once he passes fifty as he is when he first arrives at the crease.

His average of over 50 as an opening batsman is very impressive, but he has been bang in form. A top class opening batsman in his form and with as many starts as he has made would have a much bigger average, but more importantly would have helped Australia into many more winning positions than Watson has. I'm talking about natural, patient, opening batsmen ie Chris Rogers and an in-form Phil Jaques.

So Watson should be credited for his consistency, but slated for his lack of dominant, match defining innings.

 

[tooextracool]

Think both Watson and Katich have pretty ordinary conversion rates. The only players who you could argue are free from blame here are Hussey, Clarke and Haddin because when they have been in form and scored they have got centuries.

The real problem is with the tail though. I mean firstly it starts at 6 with Marcus North. But secondly none of Siddle, Johnson, Doherty, Harris, Bollinger, Hauritz etc have managed to have a single meaningful partnership. Seems to me that if you can get past Haddin, the end is nigh. Certainly the longest Aussie tail in a very long time.

 

[TumTum]

But the thing is Watson can't be blamed for these collapses, because he gets the team of to a good start almost every time. Sure he doesn't go on to make the big one but you would think he helps the team more often then not.

Also forgot to mention Hughes who didn't help the cause in the first 2 matches in 2009.

Also another thing to point out is that Ponting has been averaging 41.36 in the last 2 series compared with his overall Ashes record of 46.78.

So it seems that Katich and Ponting are the people to blame.

 

[benchmark00]

Clearly the problem has been/is Ian Healy.

 

[Ruckus]

But the thing is Watson can't be blamed for these collapses, because he gets the team of to a good start almost every time. Sure he doesn't go on to make the big one but you would think he helps the team more often then not.

Yeah I agree with that. It's pretty debatable whether always scoring 50-odd every innings as an opener is worse than scoring a hundred every two innings. The difference it makes to the game is essentially nothing - all that matters is that he is averaging a high amount, which he is.

 

[benchmark00]

As an opener, the one thing Watson has going for him is consistency. It's most frustrating that he rarely goes on and gets a big score, however traditionally the openers job is to see off the openers and hit the ball around a bit, which is what he's doing on a consistent basis.

A problem would arise if he was doing what he is now (getting to 50 and getting out) and he was batting in the middle order, or he was making 50, then making a low score the next couple of innings.

You would take 50 from both your openers every day, the issue is that it gets exasperated when the middle order is fragile and doesn't perform.

 

[Tom 1972]

This doesn't just relate to the Ashes, but I think it has more to do with how blokes perform in a given situation. eg: the well documented Marcus North averaging bugger all when we're in trouble and making runs when it isn't important or it is a dead rubber.

I haven't done any fact-based research but that's why Steve Waugh was so great - not the most talented player ever but made runs when they really counted (I suspect), hence one of the greats.

 

[tooextracool]

But the thing is Watson can't be blamed for these collapses, because he gets the team of to a good start almost every time. Sure he doesn't go on to make the big one but you would think he helps the team more often then not.

Also forgot to mention Hughes who didn't help the cause in the first 2 matches in 2009.

Also another thing to point out is that Ponting has been averaging 41.36 in the last 2 series compared with his overall Ashes record of 46.78.

So it seems that Katich and Ponting are the people to blame.

Right......and North isnt to blame even though hes batted like a tailender every time the ball has moved an iota off the pitch.

 

[pasag]

As an opener, the one thing Watson has going for him is consistency. It's most frustrating that he rarely goes on and gets a big score, however traditionally the openers job is to see off the openers and hit the ball around a bit, which is what he's doing on a consistent basis.

A problem would arise if he was doing what he is now (getting to 50 and getting out) and he was batting in the middle order, or he was making 50, then making a low score the next couple of innings.

You would take 50 from both your openers every day, the issue is that it gets exasperated when the middle order is fragile and doesn't perform.

Yep, he's not doing an excellent job, but he is doing his job. Hopefully with experience under his belt now he can kick on in the next phase of his career.

 

[tooextracool]

As an opener, the one thing Watson has going for him is consistency. It's most frustrating that he rarely goes on and gets a big score, however traditionally the openers job is to see off the openers and hit the ball around a bit, which is what he's doing on a consistent basis.

DWTA. Its fine if he was doing this when the ball is seaming around as it generally is in England. Bit of a different story when the opposition is scoring 517/1 and 650 odd for 5 in Australia. If batsmen in form arent going to cash in then it is always going to be a problem.

 

[Ruckus]

DWTA. Its fine if he was doing this when the ball is seaming around as it generally is in England. Bit of a different story when the opposition is scoring 517/1 and 650 odd for 5 in Australia. If batsmen in form arent going to cash in then it is always going to be a problem.

Watson's pattern of scoring at the moment is more like 50 (1st innings), 50 (2nd innings) than 100 (1st innings), 0 (2nd innings). It makes no difference to the game which of these scoring patterns a player has - it only matters what they are averaging. You could argue that Watson should be converting more of his 50's, but that would mean he would be averaging far more than 50 as an opener which is asking too much.

As long as Watson continues to average 50+ as an opener, there is absolutely no problem - in fact it would put him alongside the great openers of the past. His failure to convert half centuries probably only seems inadequate because Ponting in recent times consistently fails to capitalise on the starts he provides.

 

[TumTum]

Right......and North isnt to blame even though hes batted like a tailender every time the ball has moved an iota off the pitch.

As I said previously look at Martyn's average in the Ashes. Problem mainly is with Katto and Punter, they have been the ones starting these collapses with the middle-order resurrecting the innings.

 

[benchmark00]

DWTA. Its fine if he was doing this when the ball is seaming around as it generally is in England. Bit of a different story when the opposition is scoring 517/1 and 650 odd for 5 in Australia. If batsmen in form arent going to cash in then it is always going to be a problem.

No matter where you play, if you bat first in the game there is always going to be something in it for the bowlers in the first session. Sure, there may be a little less grass coverage in Australia compared to England, but it's certainly not easy by any measure. There's still seam movement and swing.

You quote 1/517 and 5/650... Both of these innings were played when the pitch was at its best, not in the first session on day one.

 

[tooextracool]

Watson's pattern of scoring at the moment is more like 50 (1st innings), 50 (2nd innings) than 100 (1st innings), 0 (2nd innings). It makes no difference to the game which of these scoring patterns a player has - it only matters what they are averaging. You could argue that Watson should be converting more of his 50's, but that would mean he would be averaging far more than 50 as an opener which is asking too much.

As long as Watson continues to average 50+ as an opener, there is absolutely no problem - in fact it would put him alongside the great openers of the past. His failure to convert half centuries probably only seems inadequate because Ponting in recent times consistently fails to capitalise on the starts he provides.

Averages are not the be all and end all in cricket. a 50 is a job half done much like if a person painted half your house. I'll take 100 and 0 over 50 and 50 any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Averages are not the be all and end all in cricket. a 50 is a job half done much like if a person painted half your house. I'll take 100 and 0 over 50 and 50 any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Completely agreed.