• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

*Official* New Zealand in India 2010

Mike5181

International Captain
For people who have posted 10,000+ times on a cricket site you would think there would be some level of logic within their arguments. Hopkins IS the best full time Wicketkeeper running around our domestic game. As said in earlier posts Watling has a history with the gloves and has had recent exposure to the international stage with the odd success (Granted a few fails) but potential is there. He is 25 so do not even try and throw out names like Sinclair and Papps that is ten times dumber than the stupidity you claim is in this idea.
 

BeeGee

International Captain
With McCullum moving to open in tests and Williamson likely to move into the 3 spot in the near future, if Watling wants to get back into the test side, his best bet would be to position himself as a keeper. Whether he does that or whether the selectors would consider him as an option as the test keeper, who knows?
Personally, if Hopkins continues to fail, I think McGlashan should be given a shot. When I first saw him keep for NZ I remember thinking that he looked sharp behind the stumps (and looked like a better glove man than Hopkins, imo).
 

Mike5181

International Captain
With McCullum moving to open in tests and Williamson likely to move into the 3 spot in the near future, if Watling wants to get back into the test side, his best bet would be to position himself as a keeper. Whether he does that or whether the selectors would consider him as an option as the test keeper, who knows?
Personally, if Hopkins continues to fail, I think McGlashan should be given a shot. When I first saw him keep for NZ I remember thinking that he looked sharp behind the stumps (and looked like a better glove man than Hopkins, imo).
I don't know I'm not against giving McGlashan a go or Reece Young for that matter but it's more the batting side of things that really needs to be addressed. Hopkins failure likely cost us that first test and If we could have just a decent wicketkeeper that could average round 30 at 7 or 8 it could invaluable to the team.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
I don't know I'm not against giving McGlashan a go or Reece Young for that matter but it's more the batting side of things that really needs to be addressed. Hopkins failure likely cost us that first test and If we could have just a decent wicketkeeper that could average round 30 at 7 or 8 it could invaluable to the team.
I am losing my memory how did he lose us the first test again. Martin gave us a chance to win and then the bowlers couldn't finish the job.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
I am losing my memory how did he lose us the first test again. Martin gave us a chance to win and then the bowlers couldn't finish the job.
Hopkins is my scapegoat for NZ failure :laugh:. He doesn't put the icing on the cake with our totals. We should have a first innings lead but he gets out for ten or whatever and we end up short of what we should have had. He is like Ryan Harris at number 8 except in our team.

I'm sure he dropped a catch or two as well.
 
Last edited:

Flem274*

123/5
For people who have posted 10,000+ times on a cricket site you would think there would be some level of logic within their arguments. Hopkins IS the best full time Wicketkeeper running around our domestic game. As said in earlier posts Watling has a history with the gloves and has had recent exposure to the international stage with the odd success (Granted a few fails) but potential is there. He is 25 so do not even try and throw out names like Sinclair and Papps that is ten times dumber than the stupidity you claim is in this idea.
Haha, for ****s sake.

Okay then, since our most proven keeper batsman hasn't done the job, instead of going to the second most proven, lets pick a guy who hasn't kept wicket full time in yonks because, after watching a couple of 20/20 matches, you think an opening batsman who used to keep wicket but hasn't for quite a while is better than all the domestic keepers, it's sure to work.

**** me dead, it's getting too easy to get selected for New Zealand these days. Players are getting picked on what they might do instead of what they have shown they can do. It's relatively easy enough as it is for the very talented players to score runs and take wickets domestically, and when some of these players are elevated and don't do well enough, instead of working with them to squeeze out every ounce of success they might possess we turn to guys who look good and might do well because they're young which obviously means they're talented.

I actually think the pressure on the shoulders of the likes of Watling, Guptill, Fynn etc is very unfair because they've barely done anything domestically. And if they can't do much domestically while James Franklin, Peter Ingram, Peter Fulton and Matthew Sinclair bend over their opposition for fun (only to be horribly exposed when they're elevated to test cricket), how in ****ing Christ's green backside can we expect young players just starting out to come in against ****ing good test players? Guys like Sinclair deserve the criticism they get, but these young blokes cop it and it's not their fault. They haven't done much at lower levels.

Reece Young and Kruger van Wyk kept wicket just the other day. Watling last kept wicket probably covering for McCullum in some random one off ODI. Watling will be keeping wicket under more pressure, on a bigger stage where millions will be watching, against better bowlers and the chances are worth more because international class batsmen won't give as many chances as domestic batsmen. It will be hard. Contrary to your opinion, throwing in a keeper who last kept wicket for his province further back than I can remember because he looks like he might be good rather than has shown he deserves the gig is the complete opposite of logic, it is stupidity personified.

If you were a domestic keeper who had a good catching record and did well with the bat, and some batsman was given the gloves because he might be good rather than has shown he's good, would you agree with it? I highly doubt it.

All six domestic keepers might turn out to be utter ****, but Watling should not even come into consideration until they're tried unless he goes and proves he can keep game after game after game after game to a high enough standard. He might be capable, in which case good on him and give him the test cap he deserves.
 
Last edited:

BeeGee

International Captain
I don't know I'm not against giving McGlashan a go or Reece Young for that matter but it's more the batting side of things that really needs to be addressed. Hopkins failure likely cost us that first test and If we could have just a decent wicketkeeper that could average round 30 at 7 or 8 it could invaluable to the team.
I'm very much of the opinion that you pick your test keeper on his glove work first and batting second. I think picking your keeper based on batting is a flawed strategy. All it takes is a dropped catch or a missed stumping and any advantage he may give you with the bat is completely negated. By picking your best glove man you give yourself the best chance of taking all wicket opportunities offered and in test cricket that's vital.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I'm very much of the opinion that you pick your test keeper on his glove work first and batting second. I think picking your keeper based on batting is a flawed strategy. All it takes is a dropped catch or a missed stumping and any advantage he may give you with the bat is completely negated. By picking your best glove man you give yourself the best chance of taking all wicket opportunities offered and in test cricket that's vital.
This is especially true when you consider that whoever you pick isn't even going to bat in the top seven.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
Haha, for ****s sake.

Okay then, since our most proven keeper batsman hasn't done the job, instead of going to the second most proven, lets pick a guy who hasn't kept wicket full time in yonks because, after watching a couple of 20/20 matches, you think an opening batsman who used to keep wicket but hasn't for quite a while is better than all the domestic keepers, it's sure to work.

**** me dead, it's getting too easy to get selected for New Zealand these days. Players are getting picked on what they might do instead of what they have shown they can do. It's relatively easy enough as it is for the very talented players to score runs and take wickets domestically, and when some of these players are elevated and don't do well enough, instead of working with them to squeeze out every ounce of success they might possess we turn to guys who look good and might do well because they're young which obviously means they're talented.

Blah blah blah blah


I actually think the pressure on the shoulders of the likes of Watling, Guptill, Fynn etc is very unfair because they've barely done anything domestically. And if they can't do much domestically while James Franklin, Peter Ingram, Peter Fulton and Matthew Sinclair bend over their opposition for fun (only to be horribly exposed when they're elevated to test cricket), how in ****ing Christ's green backside can we expect young players just starting out to come in against ****ing good test players? Guys like Sinclair deserve the criticism they get, but these young blokes cop it and it's not their fault. They haven't done much at lower levels.

Reece Young and Kruger van Wyk kept wicket just the other day. Watling last kept wicket probably covering for McCullum in some random one off ODI. Watling will be keeping wicket under more pressure, on a bigger stage where millions will be watching, against better bowlers and the chances are worth more because international class batsmen won't give as many chances as domestic batsmen. It will be hard. Contrary to your opinion, throwing in a keeper who last kept wicket for his province further back than I can remember because he looks like he might be good rather than has shown he deserves the gig is the complete opposite of logic, it is stupidity personified.

If you were a domestic keeper who had a good catching record and did well with the bat, and some batsman was given the gloves because he might be good rather than has shown he's good, would you agree with it? I highly doubt it.

All six domestic keepers might turn out to be utter ****, but Watling should not even come into consideration until they're tried unless he goes and proves he can keep game after game after game after game to a high enough standard. He might be capable, in which case good on him and give him the test cap he deserves.
Blah blah blah. The point is that the most experienced and best wicketkeeper batsmen in NZ can't bat for peanuts and quite frankly if you think Young, Van Wyk etc can do much better you are delusional.

Just because Watling hasn't had the gloves for a while it doesn't mean he isn't a capable wicketkeeper.Hopkins has had seven innings and not one has been over 15 and on flat wickets with us mostly in good positions. I don't think we should have to put up with the NZ team "squeezing" out all the so called proven performances in an obviously flawed domestic system. It has become obvious that proving yourself at the domestic level doesn't have much weight anyway so we have to have another way of spotting players who could make the jump to the international stage. The words "talent" and "potential" have to be utilised in the selection process as seen in players like Guptill (the world ODI eleven team in his debut year) - who wouldn't be there based on your opinions of proven performance at the domestic level.

Blah blah blah geez cbf trying to explain a fairly obvious solution to our quite obvious problem in the NZ team. If you think this idea is so flawed then who would you give the gloves to assuming Hopkins continues to fail? There are none better than Hopkins and you know it but in Watling we have an alternative.
 
Last edited:

Mike5181

International Captain
"This is especially true when you consider that whoever you pick isn't even going to bat in the top seven. "

That may be true but NOT as much in the nz team. You need a number 8 who can bat and if you do not get that then i give you two words Daniel Vettori. How many times has he saved us? You can't dismiss the importance of batting in a fragile batting line up like New Zealands.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Blah blah blah. The point is that the most experienced and best wicketkeeper batsmen in NZ can't bat for peanuts and quite frankly if you think Young, Van Wyk etc can do much better you are delusional.
Why? Because you watched a 20/20 game?

In any case, their batting is irrelevant. If Bevan Griggs or Owen Ivins is/was the best keeper in NZ, I would pick them. Wicketkeepers catch, the batsmen do the batting.

How many matches have you watched of the keepers in NZ to suggest that despite their records, they cannot bat? Bearing in mind Hopkins was a great benefactor of batting on a road at home and the typical NZ seamer isn't very effective on them.

Just because Watling hasn't had the gloves for a while it doesn't mean he isn't a capable wicketkeeper.
I agree, which is why he should go and prove he deserves it.

Hopkins has had seven innings and not one has been over 15 and on flat wickets with us mostly in good positions. I don't think we should have to put up with the NZ team "squeezing" out all the so called proven performances in an obviously flawed domestic system.
How would you improve the system?

Blah blah blah geez cbf trying to explain a fairly obvious solution to our quite obvious problem in the NZ team.
It isn't an obvious solution it all, it's the stupidest suggestion I've heard. Please explain why taking a shortcut likely to fail is such a brilliant ploy?

If you think this idea is so flawed then who would you give the gloves to assuming Hopkins continues to fail?
Young or van Wyk. By all accounts they seem to be the best keepers available. If they aren't, then I'd find whoever the best keeper is.

There are none better than Hopkins and you know it but in Watling we have an alternative.
Actually I've heard Young is a better keeper than Hopkins. Whether it is true I don't know. Please don't try and assume what I do or do not know and believe, it just makes you look stupid.

And no, Watling is not an alternative at this stage.

"This is especially true when you consider that whoever you pick isn't even going to bat in the top seven. "

That may be true but NOT as much in the nz team. You need a number 8 who can bat and if you do not get that then i give you two words Daniel Vettori. How many times has he saved us? You can't dismiss the importance of batting in a fragile batting line up like New Zealands.
The batsmen can score some runs for a change. We need to stop preparing ambulances to park at the bottom of the cliff. Doing so is symptomatic of why we're crap. Instead of putting everything into making good batsmen we pick lower orders to cover for their deficiencies.

My bottom line is Watling can have the gloves when he's shown he deserves them. Trying to find brilliant players overnight despite their modest records is another symptom of why we're awful. It appears to me that showing you might be a good player is of equal or more value than proving you are a good player.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Phlegm in only recorded matches count shocker. Watling's probably been squatting behind a set of stumps just as much as any Kiwi keeper over the past few months.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Phlegm in only recorded matches count shocker.
Isn't that logical? Doing a job in a proper game when the presssure is on>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than in practice.

Watling's probably been squatting behind a set of stumps just as much as any Kiwi keeper over the past few months.
You can't prove that either way. He may well have done none at all. We don't know. In any case, keeping in team practice does not make you deserve to keep ahead of others who have done so in a truckload of real games.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Yes but my argument is that if he has been working for it and is keeping well he should be in the lineup. Obviously if he is rubbish, couldn't ever last a match and hasn't worn gloves since last winter in the snow he shouldn't get a go.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
Isn't that logical? Doing a job in a proper game when the presssure is on>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than in practice.



You can't prove that either way. He may well have done none at all. We don't know. In any case, keeping in team practice does not make you deserve to keep ahead of others who have done so in a truckload of real games.
You can't learn how to handle the pressure of the international game on the domestic scene! HAHA you have to experience it and get used to it.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Yes but my argument is that if he has been working for it and is keeping well he should be in the lineup. Obviously if he is rubbish, couldn't ever last a match and hasn't worn gloves since last winter in the snow he shouldn't get a go.
If he's been working for it then he should be allowed to go back to domestic stuff and show his worth game after game after game after game.

Doing anything else is basically saying to the other keepers "we don't rate you at all, we rate you so low we'll take a guy who hasn't kept for several FC matches in a row for years over you, give up all your test ambitions now because despite working for years and earning a shot we don't want you."

Great message to send back to domestic cricket, a competition already struggling for credibility in the eyes of the public.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
If he's been working for it then he should be allowed to go back to domestic stuff and show his worth game after game after game after game.

Doing anything else is basically saying to the other keepers "we don't rate you at all, we rate you so low we'll take a guy who hasn't kept for several FC matches in a row for years over you, give up all your test ambitions now because despite working for years and earning a shot we don't want you."

Great message to send back to domestic cricket, a competition already struggling for credibility in the eyes of the public.
Yeah thats the right way to do it. Waste years and years of this guys career on the domestic stage which has been proven time and time again to be well below what is required on the international level.
 

Flem274*

123/5
You can't learn how to handle the pressure of the international game on the domestic scene! HAHA you have to experience it and get used to it.
You can learn to handle it better in a domestic game than in team practice.

By your reasoning we should disband domestic cricket and just have nationwide net practice. Domestic cricket doesn't teach anything so why bother?

Or rotate the players through the national team, well out of their depth, on the off chance you might strike gold.

Oh wait, that sounds familliar....
 

Top