Is Vettori's ineffectiveness a problem for NZ?

[Jarquis]

Whether or not Raina is one of these men, India definitely have six better batsmen than Vettori. If Raina got dropped, a theoretical Vettori who couldn't bowl would not head the list of possible replacements. I'd pick him anyway despite not rating his bowling, to give them a five man attack, but he wouldn't make India's team on batting alone.

You seriously overrate the importance of needing 5 bowlers imo.
India have Sehwag anyway.

 

[GIMH]

Prince EWS has gone from a good bloke, to a turncoat, to a complete **** all in the space of a few weeks. Vettori would take Collingwood's place in the England side? WTF?

Collingwood is not picked as an all-rounder in the England team. Vettori is not as good a batsman as Collingwood. It's that simple.

 

[Debris]

You seriously overrate the importance of needing 5 bowlers imo.
India have Sehwag anyway.

This is so true. If you need 5 bowlers, it suggests that they are not good enough. The two great sides of modern times did fine with 4 and a part-timer or two to roll his arm over for a few. Stamina-wise, a bowler should be able to bowl 3 1 hour stints in a day without any issues and usually more.

 

[tooextracool]

How on Earth can someone say Vettori is underrated? Okay, you can say he's not overrated. But underrated?

So many cricket fans, casual and full time fans, consider him a gun.

He made the ROW World XI team 5 years ago ahead of Anil ****ing Kumble FFS. I distinctly remember Richie Benaud saying that in Warne, MacGill, Murali and Vettori that the Aust vs. ROW XI match had the 4 best spin bowlers in the world.

One of the few times I swore at Richie Benaud. It was ridiculous.

Vettori's a likeable fellow, has a ridiculously tough job, and wears glasses and often has a mo and a beard. He's also been damn unlucky with injuries. But he's not underrated.

He maybe overrated by the masses, but hes underrated on here. AFAIC, hes underrated when he is compared to bowlers like Harbhajan Singh who boast superior records while being distinctly average away from home.

Yes Kumble was a far better bowler than him, but its quite obvious to me that hes an unfortunate victim of circumstance. If he'd played more county cricket in England, he would probably be tearing apart sides.

 

[Uppercut]

How much better a batsman than Vettori is Collingwood though? I mean, he hasn't been scoring many more runs than him for years now. How much better can one batsman be than another when they're both scoring almost the same amount of runs at almost the same average? Better by enough to justify discarding Vettori's bowling completely?

Anyway, regardless of the answer, I think England would definitely play Vettori. Their selectors are much keener on a five-man attack than anyone else's.

 

[tooextracool]

Not sure I agree with that. Vettori is effective in certain conditions, I doubt England really need 2 finger spinners in their bowling attack for all conditions. Vettori might be a better all round player than Collingwood but I'm not sure whether Vettori is a good enough batsman to bat in the top 6 for England and its questionable as to whether Prior as a wk/batsman is either.

Vettori has also been largely scoring his runs at home, his contributions in the majority of the away series including the current series in India haven't been up to the standards you'd expect of a regular batsman.

 

[Blaze 18]

I would have Daniel Vettori in the Indian side. He may or may not be a better test batsman than Suresh Raina, but he is no mug with the bat; and having him at number seven would give the Indian side the opportunity to play three quicks.

 

[tooextracool]

Personally, think hes a better bowler than Ojha so he would probably just replace him with the added benefit of being able to bat capably.

 

[vcs]

Personally, think hes a better bowler than Ojha so he would probably just replace him with the added benefit of being able to bat capably.

That was my thought as well..

 

[Uppercut]

Not sure I agree with that. Vettori is effective in certain conditions, I doubt England really need 2 finger spinners in their bowling attack for all conditions. Vettori might be a better all round player than Collingwood but I'm not sure whether Vettori is a good enough batsman to bat in the top 6 for England and its questionable as to whether Prior as a wk/batsman is either.

Vettori has also been largely scoring his runs at home, his contributions in the majority of the away series including the current series in India haven't been up to the standards you'd expect of a regular batsman.

I wasn't really offering an opinion. I was just thinking about whether Vettori's bowling has fallen so much in people's estimates that it's not even good enough to overcome the difference between his batting and Collingwood's.

 

[tooextracool]

I wasn't really offering an opinion. I was just thinking about whether Vettori's bowling has fallen so much in people's estimates that it's not even good enough to overcome the difference between his batting and Collingwood's.

Its not really about whether Vettori is a better overall player than Collingwood though. Its about who is a better fit for the England side. Do England really need 2 finger spinners in their side for 70% of their test matches? Probably not.

 

[Blocky]

Collingwood - one of the world's best fielders and most secure batsmen in a crisis, a guy who averages 35 against Aus, 57.6 against RSA and 45 against India.... who has averaged 45.4 since Strauss was captain and plays his best cricket in drawn series for England (indicating his presence as a guy for a crisis)......

vs

Vettori - a secure if not fantastic fielder at mid on, who averages 25.4 against Aus, 23.9 against England, 29 against South Africa and 34 against India.... who has averaged 40.06 since he was Captain...

Are people really trying to say Vettori is a better batsman than Collingwood? Collingwood has turned it on so many times to save Englands ass in games, rather than get himself out cheaply like Vettori tends to do in high pressure situations that aren't against Bangladesh.

Sure, Vettori is a much better bowler but to be honest - Collingwood doesn't bowl many overs and doesn't need too - he has Broad, Swann, Anderson and whoever else to do that for him.

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah cant help but agree with the above. Im one of Vettori's biggest fans but comparing Collingwood to Vettori is a bit of slap in the face to Collingwood and everything that he has accomplished in an England shirt. Not even sure why hes the one considered to be replaced ITFP, hes better than almost every other England test match batsman.

 

[Blocky]

Yup.

Vettori makes England only when they play in the sub continent - he probably comes in as a bowler rather than batsman and more than likely bats behind Prior (who has a better record than him as a bat)

 

[Flem274*]

Cantabrian legspinner Todd Astle just took 6/28. Patel might be starting to look over his shoulder considering Astle's form over the past two seasons.

 

[Bahnz]

Cantabrian legspinner Todd Astle just took 6/28. Patel might be starting to look over his shoulder considering Astle's form over the past two seasons.

Well, he has only played about 6 games as a bowling all rounder, since giving up opening, and the ND batting lineup he took those wickets against were pretty rubbish. He'll need at least a full season of strong performances before he starts being considered.

 

[irottev]

Cantabrian legspinner Todd Astle just took 6/28. Patel might be starting to look over his shoulder considering Astle's form over the past two seasons.

He deserves a chance in the Black Caps if he keeps it up. They shoulda taken him on that A tour. I'm sure he'll be on the next one.

Well, he has only played about 6 games as a bowling all rounder, since giving up opening, and the ND batting lineup he took those wickets against were pretty rubbish. He'll need at least a full season of strong performances before he starts being considered.

6 games? He played all last season as one.

 

[Bahnz]

6 games? He played all last season as one.

He played two games at the start of last season, batting up the order (at 3 and 4), in which he bowled a grand total of 9 overs. He was then dropped for poor performances with the bat.

At the end of the season he came back as a mid game replacement for Chris Martin, slotted in down the order, and started bowling a truckload of overs with good reward. It appears that in the interim he made a definite decision to focus on his bowling.

 

[Blocky]

I just feel we don't have a good scouting system in NZ to raw club players with unique skills. The administration system in NZ is run by old stodgy bastards with club/school affiliations who don't pick fairly.

I know of three leg spinners I've played at club cricket, all of whom extract more turn than any first class spinner in operation in NZ. I know one guy who can turn the ball to the same degree as Shane Warne, not with the quick spin Warnie generated but still massive turn.

Yet these guys languish at club level, where they get smashed in the nets time and time again, they get very little coaching because NZ has no way of coaching them and they often don't even get a bowl for their club side because they haven't mastered accuracy yet.

I think if we were more able to find these unique guys who either spin the ball a mile or generate bounce or generate pace and start training them, we could develop some very handy cricketers - rather than rely on what the top schools around the country produce and the sons of ex first class cricketers who make representitive sides based on name and nothing more.

 

[Flem274*]

Haha, Shane Bond says as much in his book. Reckons kids in fashionable schools get an easy ride.

But he also says the likes of him and Fleming going to ****box schools were probably the making of them as cricketers, because they had to scrap their way through the grades.