Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[smash84]

INot too dissimilar to the reason why India never manages to produce fast bowlers for a country of its size and population.

What theory is that????

 

[smash84]

Can't play cricket with all the rain over there.

Martin Crowe>>>>Tresco, Atherton and Stewart. Gooch would be his peer. Those two blokes played extremely well during a period of awesome bowling.

Check out this list of averages from 1985-1995 (qualification 20 tests)

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Didn't see too much of Gooch but saw a bit of Martin Crowe and that guy was brilliant. Could have been an all time great (still is but not as much as he could have been) had he not had a terrible start to his career.

Wasim Akram rated him as the best that he had ever bowled to in his autobiography (that came out in 1998. He may have revised his opinion after that). By far the best New Zealand batsman that I ever saw. Could have been in the movies too but apparently his cousin Russell beat him to it .........

 

[bagapath]

stewart as a wk + batsman is very underrated.

 

[vcs]

What theory is that????

Variety of reasons, heat, flat pancake wickets, Indians don't have natural fast bowler's physiques, cultural reasons (using guile/brains in the form of spinners is seen as a preferable method of dismissing batsmen as opposed to blasting them out with sheer pace and aggression)...

These may sound like wishy-washy theories on the surface and people will say one is missing the obvious reason - i.e. poorly coached fast bowlers and bad selection policies but they could easily have a combined effect. After all, to be an ATG, being in the top 5 percentile is not good enough, you need that extra bit to be in the top 0.1 percentile and these things may all bring down those chances.

 

[Jono]

I blame Thatcher.

 

[Smudge]

Regardless of Crowe's brilliance, and efforts across his career, he's not an all-time great. A ***y batsman to watch in terms of technique, yes, but not an all-time great.

 

[Ruckus]

Variety of reasons, heat, flat pancake wickets, Indians don't have natural fast bowler's physiques, cultural reasons (using guile/brains in the form of spinners is seen as a preferable method of dismissing batsmen as opposed to blasting them out with sheer pace and aggression)...

These may sound like wishy-washy theories on the surface and people will say one is missing the obvious reason - i.e. poorly coached fast bowlers and bad selection policies but they could easily have a combined effect. After all, to be an ATG, being in the top 5 percentile is not good enough, you need that extra bit to be in the top 0.1 percentile and these things may all bring down those chances.

I would have thought another reason India doesn't produce great fast bowlers is because the country has produced some dominant and iconic batsman, especially Tendulkar, who all the aspiring cricketers want to emulate. Just like in Pakistan where all the kids want to be like Wasim Akram, which translates to a consistent flow of great fast bowlers coming out of the country.

 

[Xuhaib]

No doubt Alec's best work was as opener, his tons in the WI tour in 94 were ridiculously high class. I'd add his 170 vs Pakistan in 1996, and didnt he make a cracking ton in 1992 vs Pakistan, memory is failing me now!

the only english batsman in the 90's who stood up to W's was a treat to watch.

 

[Jono]

That plays a factor, but it's not the dominant factor in my view. There are still plenty of kids trying to bowl fast. Ishant, Pathan etc. all got lots of media attention, suggesting that if anyone ever becomes the next big thing as a fat bowler, they will receive fame, fortune etc.

 

[Ruckus]

That plays a factor, but it's not the dominant factor in my view. There are still plenty of kids trying to bowl fast. Ishant, Pathan etc. all got lots of media attention, suggesting that if anyone ever becomes the next big thing as a fat bowler, they will receive fame, fortune etc.

But seriously, I think the future fast bowling stock in India is a minority. Any country with over a billion cricket crazy people is going to produce at least some cricketers from all the different specialities.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I blame Thatcher.

Selling off all the schools' playing fields certainly hasn't helped cricket in state schools, no. The vast majority of English players now come from public (fee paying) schools or from cricket clubs. If they come through the English system at all, obvz...

The sad fact is we aren't overburden with world class sporting talent, but we do produce them in other sports with greater regularity than cricket; for instance our world cup winning union side had three nailed-on AT greats in Johnson, Hill & Robinson and others like Wilkinson & Dallaglio who could have cases made for them.

As to the why? Several reasons, the weather probably doesn't help, nor the sedentary lifestyle or lack of investment in the grass roots but as a nation we are utterly sports-obsessed (EPL most watched sports league in any sport in the world and yesterday 70k people paid money to watch England play Samoa, which, with all due respect, isn't a blue-chip fixture) so it is something of a mystery.

 

[smash84]

I would have thought another reason India doesn't produce great fast bowlers is because the country has produced some dominant and iconic batsman, especially Tendulkar, who all the aspiring cricketers want to emulate. Just like in Pakistan where all the kids want to be like Wasim Akram, which translates to a consistent flow of great fast bowlers coming out of the country.

I would tend to agree with this.

The weather in Pakistani summers is equally hot (might probably be hotter than most parts of Inda). Waqar's area near Multan touches around 50 degrees Celsius in the summer. Areas around Lahore are easily 45+ and so on. So the weather is not so much an issue. I think it is more about icons. And if anything Pak pitches are even worse than Indian pitches. They are good enough to make for an aircraft's runway. Quite terrible.

Wasim, Waqar and that whole generation wanted to be like Imran Khan. Imran was the first genuinely quick bowler that Pakistan had. Before that FAzal, Sarfaraz, Khan Mohammad, they were all medium pacers rather than being genuinely quick. Children growing up in the 90s wanted to be like Wasim or Waqar.

Similarly in India Sunny was the role model for kids like Tendulkar and currently Tendulkar is the role model for many many kids.

So I would agree with this icon theory somewhat.

 

[vcs]

I would have thought another reason India doesn't produce great fast bowlers is because the country has produced some dominant and iconic batsman, especially Tendulkar, who all the aspiring cricketers want to emulate. Just like in Pakistan where all the kids want to be like Wasim Akram, which translates to a consistent flow of great fast bowlers coming out of the country.

Absolutely true, very good point.

at Jono's typo.

 

[Burgey]

Gooch, Atherton, Stewart, Trescothick?

Crowe was an excellent batsman and captain but he has neither masses of runs (<6000) nor a stunning average (45) behind him.

Granted, I don't think England have had a bowler of Bond's quality since Botham.

Mate you're kidding if you think those blokes are fit to carry Crowe's jockstrap as a batsman. Save for Gooch for the fag end of his career, when he seemed to defy the years and actually got better. Stewart was gifted but didn't do enough, Atherton was a trier and that's about it and Trescothick IMHO wasn't as good as either of those two.

In relation to the OP, the answer would likely be inherent inferiority and poor climate.

 

[Shri]

suggesting that if anyone ever becomes the next big thing as a fat bowler

Ramesh Powar wuz robbed!

 

[smash84]

Mate you're kidding if you think those blokes are fit to carry Crowe's jockstrap as a batsman.

 

[G.I.Joe]

That plays a factor, but it's not the dominant factor in my view. There are still plenty of kids trying to bowl fast. Ishant, Pathan etc. all got lots of media attention, suggesting that if anyone ever becomes the next big thing as a fat bowler, they will receive fame, fortune etc.

:

 

[kingkallis]

Name one post-Beefy player for England who you think is as good as them.

Simon Jones = Shane Bond

 

[Jono]

Can always rely on GI Joe sigging my typos

 

[kingkallis]

Jeez!